Necromancers and Star Players

[dode74]

If an Undead/Necro team kills a star player who is ST<5, not regen, not stunty, does the team get a free zombie? The rules state that stars are healed from death by their personal apothecaries, which suggests not. If they do it leaves the issue of what happens to that zombie after the match - does the star die and stay as the zombie, or does the zombie get bodysnatched and healed?

I see 4 potential scenarios:
1. The Necromancer does not work on stars
2. The Necromancer works, but the zombie cannot be kept
3. The Necromancer works, and the star player's apothecaries switch the new zombie for another zombie before healing the star (solves everything, I think!)
4. The Necromancer works and the star stays dead.

In order of preference I think I would choose 3, 2, 1, 4.

[GalakStarscraper]

So a Necromancer cannot be used on a player with Regeneration.

When you read the Inducement section ... you see that all Star Players have 100% success end of match Regeneration.

As a result ... Necromancer will not work on Star Players

[dode74]

Well I hate to disagree, but it does not say Regeneration anywhere in the Star Players section of the Inducements. It says

"Star Players employ their own personal
trainers and apothecaries who travel with them to heal them from
almost any injury (including death) and to get in shape for their
next match and will not use the team's amateur physicians."

That's not the skill Regeneration, which is what is mentioned in the Apothecary section:

"If a player on the opposing team with Strength 4 or less that does not have Regeneration or Stunty is killed..."

[GalakStarscraper]

What the heck is Regeneration if not: "heal them from almost any injury (including death)"

The whole point of that rule is that if the player is not really dead ... he does not become a Zombie. And per the rules ... the player had to be killed ... if they are healed from any injury including death ... they are not killed. It does not say a result of Dead! is rolled against them on the injury table ... it says "is killed" and the inducement section makes it clear that you cannot kill a Star Player.

[Regash]

Interesting...

Right now I tend to agree with Galak.
If you have the Griff Oberwald Zombie on your Nekro team and then play against Griff Oberwald himself in another match, that would be weird.

So that does mean, if a Nekro team kills an opponent and the opponent uses his apo and saves him, no Zombie is generated?
If that is true and Star Players have their own personal no-fail apos, Galak is right.

[dode74]

What the heck is Regeneration if not: "heal them from almost any injury (including death)"

It's a skill which is listed in the Skills section, particularly when it is capitalised. And the Stars have an apothecary: they don't Regenerate (the skill), although they are regenerated between matches.

The whole point of that rule is that if the player is not really dead ... he does not become a Zombie. And per the rules ... the player had to be killed ... if they are healed from any injury including death ... they are not killed. It does not say a result of Dead! is rolled against them on the injury table ... it says "is killed" and the inducement section makes it clear that you cannot kill a Star Player.

But the player is dead: the section on Star Players says that their Apo's can heal them "from almost any injury (including death)".

If you have the Griff Oberwald Zombie on your Nekro team and then play against Griff Oberwald himself in another match, that would be weird.

I agree. Hence my attempt to explain it away in the OP option 3.

So that does mean, if a Nekro team kills an opponent and the opponent uses his apo and saves him, no Zombie is generated?
If that is true and Star Players have their own personal no-fail apos, Galak is right.

I would say an apo'd death is not a Zombie. But that Apo is used right away: the player can even come back onto the pitch, but we know he is alive. That doesn't happen with Star Players.

I'm quite content to concede the point. I just think it is far from clear that this is the case from the way it is written.

[GalakStarscraper]

If that is true and Star Players have their own personal no-fail apos, Galak is right.

I would say an apo'd death is not a Zombie. But that Apo is used right away: the player can even come back onto the pitch, but we know he is alive. That doesn't happen with Star Players.

Who says a Star Player's Apothecary is not used on him right away ... I would say that it is. Its just that a Star Player who has suffered an injury that great during a match doesn't feel like playing anymore so he chooses not to even if he could. A normal Apothecary can convert a result of Dead! into a Badly Hurt thus denying the Zombie gain ... same thing for a Star's Apothecary ... he is used right away ... but the Star says "screw this" and walks away after being healed.

Yes I'm throwing in my fluff ... but the bottom line just looking at what is written in the rulebook is that the Necromancer requires the player to be killed and in both cases (and Apothecary successfully rolling to cure death of a normal player OR a Star's Apothecary healing him) the character is NOT killed and thus cannot be a Zombie.

Yes the living turn into Zombies on the Walking Dead ... but not in Blood Bowl.

[Regash]

If a player on the opposing team with Strength 4 or less that does not have Regeneration or Stunty is killed during the match (after Apothecary attempt if any) then the team may immediately place a new Zombie player in the Reserves box of their dugout

Finally, purchased/induced Apothecaries or an Igor may not be used on Star Players ever. Star Players employ their own personal trainers and apothecaries who travel with them to heal them from almost any injury (including death) and to get in shape for their next match and will not use the team's amateur physicians.

Since there is no indication WHEN the star apo returns the star player from the dead in the rules, I think we have to count that as an apo'd death. Heck, if the star player is paying for trainers, apos and personal staff, I bet this includes a group of bodyguard mercenaries to retrieve his dead body for ressurection, don't you think?

But then I found this:

*** Did you know...
Morg 'n' Thorg refuses any offer to play for a team where he might be playing along side Ramtut III. When Morg first started freelancing his services, he and Ramtut were hired to play for the Champions of Death against the Asgard Ravens. Head Coach Tomolandry believed he was a an powerful enough Necromancer to raise an Ogre from the dead and had a nefarious plan for Morg. Tomolandry bribed the Ravens to focus their blocks and fouls on Morg and Ramtut was paid extra to 'accidently' throw a block or two Morg's way in the hopes of a fatal result. After the 3rd bone-crushing hit by his 'team-mate', Morg realized he had been duped and in a rage literally tore through most of the Champions players, coaching staff, cheerleaders, and reserve players as he exited the pitch.

Tomolandry tried to zombify Morg! Galak, what now?

[dode74]

But that Apo is used right away: the player can even come back onto the pitch, but we know he is alive. That doesn't happen with Star Players.

Who says a Star Player's Apothecary is not used on him right away ... I would say that it is.

No, I was saying he doesn't come back onto the pitch.

But thanks for the clarification.

[rolo]

The rules as written seem pretty clear to me. Many Star Players have ST<5, do not have the Regeneration or Stunty skills, which are the only exceptions listed under the Necromancer description.

We just have a fluff problem, in that Star Players are supposed to be more or less immortal. I like Dode's explanation #3, it's a fluff solution to a fluff problem and doesn't change the rules as written.

(Personally I pictured Star Players coming from a vast array of clone vats, Paranoia-style).

[Bakunin]

The rules as written seem pretty clear to me. Many Star Players have ST<5, do not have the Regeneration or Stunty skills, which are the only exceptions listed under the Necromancer description.

We just have a fluff problem, in that Star Players are supposed to be more or less immortal. I like Dode's explanation #3, it's a fluff solution to a fluff problem and doesn't change the rules as written.

(Personally I pictured Star Players coming from a vast array of clone vats, Paranoia-style).

+1

[rolo]

For what it's worth, I tested it out and it works in Cyanide:



I realize that's hardly the final word on whether a ruling is canon or not (normally I'd put that below "What Galak says"). On the other hand, I'd totally keep that zombie!

[Digger Goreman]

"Unless the league commissioner decides otherwise, deaths and serious injuries inflicted on star players are waived after the match...." Icepelt, p69....

[GalakStarscraper]

Okay I have to argue with you rolo.

The Necromancer says "after Apothecary use if any" and it clearly says in the rules that the Star Players have their own Apothecary that always save them from death. Not sure how that is argued to not work.

[Regash]

The quote that Digger found says it all: House rule it! Cyanide sure did.
But from the written rules, I'm with Galak.

It is possible (though unlikely) for both teams to induce the same Star Player. If this happens then neither may use him and he keeps both sets of hiring fees!

This also emphasizes the fact that Star Players are individuals and simply cannot die. No death = no Zombie.