Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

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Moraiwe
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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Moraiwe »

All depends upon what you want to play by: The written word in the rules, or Galak's word. The rules as written give no indication that an Apothecary must be used on a KO immediately after the incident causing the KO. If such an immediate use was intended, then the rules are written poorly.

As much as I respect Galak and would want to follow his direction, if a dispute arose I'd have to rule in favour of the rulebook.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Vanguard »

Asked and answered previously.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Garrick »

Vanguard wrote:Asked and answered previously.
Similar arguments as here, respect for finding a 6 year old thread.

Seems to boil down to: Do you play the rules as they are written or as they are clarified by one of the authors?

With no disrespect intended to Galak, I prefer the "new use" version as it adds another play skill dimension, albeit minor.

If the rules need updated to reflect the intention of the authors should somebody be telling GW prior to the new release?

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by GalakStarscraper »

Garrick wrote:The wording does suggest the "new use" is legal despite clarification by one of the authors

I wonder if Galak would reconsider his clarification considering both of these points?
Moraiwe wrote:As much as I respect Galak and would want to follow his direction, if a dispute arose I'd have to rule in favour of the rulebook.
Okay let's try this then and you tell me what is supposed to happen.

Scenario 1:
- Player in a scrum is KO'd and the coach allows him to go to the KO'd box.
- Play continues and it is 3 turns later and now an opposing player has the ball and is in the square where the original player was KO'd.
- Coach of the KO'd player now says he is using the Apothecary and wants to return him to the pitch in the square he left the field.

Scenario 2:
- My Blitzer is running for a touchdown trips going into the end zone and KO'd himself on the GFI
- Next turn I'm able to recover the ball and run it in for a TD
- Blitzer fails his KO'd roll
- New drive starts
- On my turn 1, I use my Apothecary on the Blitzer to return him to the field Stunned in the opposing End Zone bringing my team to 12 players and giving me a blitzer in the opposing back field.

====

The problem with:
Moraiwe wrote:All depends upon what you want to play by: The written word in the rules
Is that going strictly on the written word in the rules it would be broken down like this:
A) Is the player KO'd?
B) Was he on the field at the time of the KO'd? (the "if he was not on the pitch" is the key here. It does not say based on where he is now ... it uses past tense so where he is at the time of the Apothecary use is irrelevant)
B) If Yes to A & B ... return him to the field Stunned

In both of the above scenarios A & B are true, so I would argue that in both scenarios that I get to return him to field just as the written word says. If you try to argue this is not true than you are actually arguing against the written word which is the foundation of the argument for not using it immediately.

See the reason it does not say use immediately is because the only way you can return the player to the pitch Stunned in the square he left without issue is if it is used immediately so we thought it would be understood that it is used immediately as otherwise returning him to the pitch could be impossible. Do I agree it could be worded more directly ... yes given this misunderstanding ... but the reason it was written the way it is is because it could be impossible to fulfill the conditions of the use if not used immediately.

Galak

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Bakunin »

-

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by dode74 »

Shushnik wrote:So? The fact remains that the rule book doesn't state one way or the other. There's nothing to clarify.
If there was nothing to clarify then why did he ask? Seems there was something to clarify and it has been clarified.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by GalakStarscraper »

Bakunin wrote:Here I have to agree with Moraiwe.

As the rules are written, it does not say you have to use your APO 'immediately' on a KO. And therefore this part becomes the problem: "or, if he was not on the pitch". This very clearly implies that you can use your APO on a player that are not on the field. Even thought this part of the sentence was meant to be about crowd surf(s) (but the written rules does not imply this or state it).
But nowhere does it say you get to put a guy back 3turn later, so that a no-go - you put 'him' in the "Reserves box"
And I would argue that you are twisting the language by doing that.

Let me try it this way:

I see your player is in the KO'd box.

I ask you the question "Was that player on the pitch when he was KO'd?"

Are you going to say No now that it is 3 turns later?

No the correct answer is clearly and without question ... yes he WAS on the pitch. It does not say to look at where he is now ... it asks a question about the past.

And since he WAS on the pitch when he was KO'd then you need to return him to the pitch to where he was KO'd.

The only way your argument works Bakunin is if you can answer the question "Was he on the pitch when he was KO'd?" and the answer is no.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Bakunin »

GalakStarscraper wrote:
Bakunin wrote:Here I have to agree with Moraiwe.

As the rules are written, it does not say you have to use your APO 'immediately' on a KO. And therefore this part becomes the problem: "or, if he was not on the pitch". This very clearly implies that you can use your APO on a player that are not on the field. Even thought this part of the sentence was meant to be about crowd surf(s) (but the written rules does not imply this or state it).
But nowhere does it say you get to put a guy back 3turn later, so that a no-go - you put 'him' in the "Reserves box"
And I would argue that you are twisting the language by doing that.

Let me try it this way:

I see your player is in the KO'd box.

I ask you the question "Was that player on the pitch when he was KO'd?"

Are you going to say No now that it is 3 turns later?

No the correct answer is clearly and without question ... yes he WAS on the pitch. It does not say to look at where he is now ... it asks a question about the past.

And since he WAS on the pitch then you need to return him to the pitch.

The only way your argument works Bakunin is if you can answer the question "Was he on the pitch?" and the answer is no.

I deleted what I said, because you have point about the language of the text being in "past tense". Your quote by me is wrong.
BUT..
So as you say, if your player got KO'd on the field, you have to put him on the field stunned, more or less immediately - this is true, I agree.
But if you wanted to master lawyer the rules, what if your player got KO'd off the field by a crowd surf (probably the only way this can happen). Then when you use your apo, you have to put him in the "Reserves box", and since the rules does not clearly imply that the APO has to be used "immediately", then a rules lawyering of the rules, could argue that a "crowd surf" APO could be used at a later time of choosing.

(Here im just arguing for the sake of argument)

BUT
Here again I come back to the rules being in "past tense", and this does seem to imply that the APO have to be used immediately or atleast when the KO' happened - so I would probably go with that ruling :D

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by GalakStarscraper »

And for the record I would agree with you that if you want to use a strict application of the wording.

You could use the apothecary on a crowd surf victim that was KO'd at any time to move him to the Reserves box. Yes that I could agree with.

But the logic that allows that is a mess for anyone not Crowd Surfed. :D

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Moraiwe »

I think the problem is that KO'ed can mean both the act of being Knocked Out, and the condition Knocked Out. The 'player was KO'ed' bit doesn't actually specify which meaning (ie. I could argue my player was in the condition Knocked Out for several turns before I used the Apoth). It would be nice to have the wording made more clear in a future ruleset.
In any case, I think I'd probably change my stance to immediately after injury simply to comply with how the majority play the game here.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Pipey »

As far as I'm concerned the rule could have been written down much more clearly.

But I hear Galak's clarification and for me that is indeed case closed.

I think it would be difficult to explain to a complete newbie that “Galak clarified on TFF” that it’s only ever used immediately after KO, telling them not to worry too much about what is actually in the text. So it could perhaps be made clear in some of the rules packs for the larger tournaments with lots of new players e.g. NAFC.

Slight lack of clarity in what is otherwise an excellent rules pack! No biggie.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Regash »

I was just imagening...

assistant coach: "Hey, medic! One of our players got knocked out cold! Do something!"
Apothecary: "Yeah, yeah, leave him over there, I only have enough bandages for one injured guy left."
15 minutes later...
Apothecary: "Okay, since he didn't wake up all by himself and no one else got injured until now, let's see if we can wake him up now."

:lol:

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Vanguard »

Garrick wrote:With no disrespect intended to Galak, I prefer the "new use" version as it adds another play skill dimension, albeit minor.
I'd actually say it removes an element of the game. Whenever the option to use at Apo comes up, you have to weigh the benefits of using it on the current player versus the potential consequences of not having it available for another player at a later point. If you know that you can always revisit the issue on a later turn, it's much less of a decision to make.
It's also a pretty serious buff to the Apo and would probably no longer be appropriate at 50k.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by GalakStarscraper »

Moraiwe wrote:It would be nice to have the wording made more clear in a future ruleset.
I do not disagree given I can see how it could be confusing.

Anyone who feels strongly about this ... I'd definitely reach out to Andy Hoare on Facebook and point him at this thread.

The wording clarification/change would read like this:

Code: Select all

If the player was KO'd immediate use of the Apothecary will leave him on the pitch Stunned, or, if the player was KO'd while not on the pitch (such as from being pushed into the crowd) immediate use will result in the player being placed into the Reserves box.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Garrick »

Vanguard wrote:
Garrick wrote:With no disrespect intended to Galak, I prefer the "new use" version as it adds another play skill dimension, albeit minor.
I'd actually say it removes an element of the game. Whenever the option to use at Apo comes up, you have to weigh the benefits of using it on the current player versus the potential consequences of not having it available for another player at a later point. If you know that you can always revisit the issue on a later turn, it's much less of a decision to make.
It's also a pretty serious buff to the Apo and would probably no longer be appropriate at 50k.
And I would disagree.

First of all I think we can agree that the return of a player to the pitch several turns after he was KO'd is not "reasonable" as that would suggest the player has been lying there for a while until the Apothecary managed to get to him. Apart from all the rules complications of having KO'd body markers left on the pitch (interesting house rule variant option here ;) ) the rules specifically say "KO’d – Take the player off the pitch and place him in the Dugout in the KO’d Players box." which also establishes that KO'd means the act and the condition.

Back to my original question: "returning a player from the KO'd dugout to the Reserves box (several turns after that player had been KO'd)". The rules say: "During a match, an Apothecary may attempt to cure a player who has suffered a Casualty or been KO'd. An Apothecary can be used only once per match. If the player was KO'd leave him on the pitch Stunned, or, if he was not on the pitch, put him in the Reserves box." As we have established that KO'd means the act and the condition. A player in the KO'd Players box who was KO'd several turns earlier would still be considered "was KO'd" so if he was not on the pitch (which he wouldn't be), put him in the Reserves box.

So we appear to have come full circle and have come back to my mid thread question:
Garrick wrote: Seems to boil down to: Do you play the rules as they are written or as they are clarified by one of the authors?
and
Garrick wrote:With no disrespect intended to Galak, I prefer the "new use" version as it adds another play skill dimension, albeit minor.
which Vanguard disagrees with. The reason I believe it adds a new dimension is because it adds another option (not removes it) as to when you use your Apothecary and therefore increases the importance of the decision of when to use your Apothecary rather than reducing it.

In summary, I think it is a cool use of an Apo (I wish I had been the one to spot it but sadly I was not) which abides by the rules as they are written and is currently "clarified" as incorrect.

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