Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Shushnik »

dode74 wrote:
Shushnik wrote:So? The fact remains that the rule book doesn't state one way or the other. There's nothing to clarify.
If there was nothing to clarify then why did he ask? Seems there was something to clarify and it has been clarified.
There is nothing to clarify as in, Garak can tell us what was intended, but the rule book doesn't say anything about the stipulation he claims is the intended rule.

Saying that an apothecary can't be used as was suggested in the OP is making rules up that aren't in the book. You're not clarifying a confusing rule. You're adding things that should be there but aren't.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Shushnik »

Regash wrote:I was just imagening...

assistant coach: "Hey, medic! One of our players got knocked out cold! Do something!"
Apothecary: "Yeah, yeah, leave him over there, I only have enough bandages for one injured guy left."
15 minutes later...
Apothecary: "Okay, since he didn't wake up all by himself and no one else got injured until now, let's see if we can wake him up now."

:lol:
That sounds completely plausible in the world of Blood Bowl. :)

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by dode74 »

Shushnik wrote:There is nothing to clarify as in, Garak can tell us what was intended, but the rule book doesn't say anything about the stipulation he claims is the intended rule.

Saying that an apothecary can't be used as was suggested in the OP is making rules up that aren't in the book. You're not clarifying a confusing rule. You're adding things that should be there but aren't.
The OP clearly found it required clarification or he wouldn't have asked. It's not adding something which is not there, it is clarifying something which is ambiguous, and we know it is ambiguous because this thread exists. If it did not exist there would clearly be no ambiguity and you'd have a point, albeit nowhere to make said point ;)

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Garrick »

Garrick wrote:I saw a new use for an Apothecary recently: returning a player from the KO'd dugout to the Reserves box (several turns after that player had been KO'd). I checked the rules:

"During a match, an Apothecary may attempt to cure a player who has suffered a Casualty or been KO'd. An Apothecary can be used only once per match. If the player was KO'd leave him on the pitch Stunned, or, if he was not on the pitch, put him in the Reserves box."

Which appears to allow the "new use" referred to above. If this is allowed then can you do this immediately after you have rolled to see who moves normally from the KO'd dugout to the Reserves box and use it on a player who has failed to get the 4+ guaranteeing that important player returns to the match?
As OP I was looking for confirmation that this "new use" which appears to be allowed by the rules is allowed and clarification "can you do this immediately after you have rolled to see who moves normally from the KO'd dugout to the Reserves box?"

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by GalakStarscraper »

Garrick wrote:A player in the KO'd Players box who was KO'd several turns earlier would still be considered "was KO'd" so if he was not on the pitch (which he wouldn't be), put him in the Reserves box.
See I would strongly disagree with you ... if you are trying to use the rules as written without apply base line logic for why the rule is written the way it is then why can I not look back 3 turns to be left on the pitch.

I get the argument being made ... but in my opinion the argument use the rule only as it was written is being selective in how they read the words as written.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by fromherashes »

I think if I was rewording the rules I would remove any reference to the player being left on the pitch stunned.

In common sense terms (especially any realistic sport) the player would be removed from the pitch automatically when KO'd then if the coach wanted to use the apo on him that player would then be moved to the reserves.

I can think of many situations where having the player safe in the reserves box relatively unmolested would be of greater benefit than say being surrounded by opposition players who then have another turn to gang foul and give you the realistic chance of losing that player to a more serious injury without an available Apo.

Just my tuppence.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Garrick »

GalakStarscraper wrote:
Garrick wrote:A player in the KO'd Players box who was KO'd several turns earlier would still be considered "was KO'd" so if he was not on the pitch (which he wouldn't be), put him in the Reserves box.
See I would strongly disagree with you ... if you are trying to use the rules as written without apply base line logic for why the rule is written the way it is then why can I not look back 3 turns to be left on the pitch.

I get the argument being made ... but in my opinion the argument use the rule only as it was written is being selective in how they read the words as written.
Sorry for repeating myself but because the rules say "If the player was KO'd leave him on the pitch Stunned" not replace him on the pitch which you would have to do as the rules also say "KO’d – Take the player off the pitch and place him in the Dugout in the KO’d Players box." so the only opportunity to keep him on the pitch is immediately to prevent him being placed in the Dugout.

Whilst "if he was not on the pitch, put him in the Reserves box." has no stated or implied time limit on it.

I am afraid the rules are quite clear, it is the clarification that isn't :wink:

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Darkson »

@fromherashes - that would be an unnecessary nerf to the apo.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Darkson »

@Garrick - so you're inferring there are two different timings in the "Apo vs KO" sentence - where does it say that?

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by fromherashes »

Darkson wrote:@fromherashes - that would be an unnecessary nerf to the apo.
Either what I suggested or what Garrick is inferring would be a lot clearer than the current wording.

I wouldn't necessarily see what I suggested as a nerf for the reason I stated as it can actually keep your team in a fairly decent position. I would foul the crap out of a wardancer that had got KOd then apo'd to stunned (or any other high cost player for that matter) I reasonably clever coach could effectively manage that player out of the game fairly quickly and then you've wasted your apo when inevitably you'll need it after you fail a GFI or your other wardancer goes down next turn.

There's a compromise in separating the two ways you could use it though but I think it's evident that the wording is ambiguous in the current rules.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Garrick »

Darkson wrote:@Garrick - so you're inferring there are two different timings in the "Apo vs KO" sentence - where does it say that?
I do appear to be repeating myself:

The 2 important sections in the rules are:

Page 11: "KO’d – Take the player off the pitch and place him in the Dugout in the KO’d Players box."

Page 17: "During a match, an Apothecary may attempt to cure a player who has suffered a Casualty or been KO'd. An Apothecary can be used only once per match. If the player was KO'd leave him on the pitch Stunned, or, if he was not on the pitch, put him in the Reserves box."

So yes we are stating not inferring there are two different timings in the "Apo vs KO" sentence:

1) You can use an Apothecary to keep a KO'd player on the pitch.
2) You can use an Apothecary to move a KO'd player from the KO'd Dugout to the Reserves box.

Neither of these is in dispute. What has been discussed is:

A) There has been some speculation about returning a KO'd player to the pitch some time after he was KO'd but this precluded by the rule on Page 11 in conjunction with the rule on Page 17 which states you can leave him on the pitch but does not allow you to return him to the pitch. This in my opinion is a red herring and nothing to do with my original question.
B) Checking that the rule about moving a KO'd player from the KO'd Dugout to the Reserves box is as written in the CRP and whether or not this action can be taken "immediately after you have rolled to see who moves normally from the KO'd Dugout to the Reserves box and use it on a player who has failed to get the 4+ guaranteeing that important player returns to the match?"

The "spanner in the works" is that one of the authors of the rules has confirmed (please forgive me if I am putting words in his mouth) that the Apothecary should be used immediately, which is not stated or inferred in the rules for moving a player from the KO'd Dugout to the Reserves box.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by GalakStarscraper »

Garrick wrote:
Page 11: "KO’d – Take the player off the pitch and place him in the Dugout in the KO’d Players box."

A) There has been some speculation about returning a KO'd player to the pitch some time after he was KO'd but this precluded by the rule on Page 11 in conjunction with the rule on Page 17 which states you can leave him on the pitch but does not allow you to return him to the pitch. This in my opinion is a red herring and nothing to do with my original question.
Totally disagree that it is a red herring.

Part of wording of page 11 is that the player is placed in the Dugout which is OFF THE FIELD. Thus the rule even when used immediately is returning him to the pitch. Thus why if he can be returned immediately to the pitch is that any different than being returned to the pitch 3 turns later? It is not so if the timing is not immediate for all uses ... than you if you want to rule with your method you should just leave KO'd players on the field as road blocks as long as the apothecary is still on the field (I'd suggest you allow movement through them but not to end there (and no fouling or pushing of him))

It is only a red herring to you because you are selectively interpreting the timing of the clauses to fit being able to use it later for a different reason.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Garrick »

GalakStarscraper wrote:
Garrick wrote:
Page 11: "KO’d – Take the player off the pitch and place him in the Dugout in the KO’d Players box."

A) There has been some speculation about returning a KO'd player to the pitch some time after he was KO'd but this precluded by the rule on Page 11 in conjunction with the rule on Page 17 which states you can leave him on the pitch but does not allow you to return him to the pitch. This in my opinion is a red herring and nothing to do with my original question.
Totally disagree that it is a red herring.

Part of wording of page 11 is that the player is placed in the Dugout which is OFF THE FIELD. Thus the rule even when used immediately is returning him to the pitch. Thus why if he can be returned immediately to the pitch is that any different than being returned to the pitch 3 turns later? It is not so if the timing is not immediate for all uses ... than you if you want to rule with your method you should just leave KO'd players on the field as road blocks as long as the apothecary is still on the field (I'd suggest you allow movement through them but not to end there (and no fouling or pushing of him))

It is only a red herring to you because you are selectively interpreting the timing of the clauses to fit being able to use it later for a different reason.
OK Tom, you almost got me :wink: then I realised you were just winding me up.

The page 17 rule is "If the player was KO'd leave him on the pitch Stunned" not "return" him to the pitch. The player never leaves the pitch as the page 17 rule modifies / supersedes the page 11 rule. Not a bad red herring but totally busted now. Can we get back to the point :D ?

Checking that the rule about moving a KO'd player from the KO'd Dugout to the Reserves box is as written in the CRP and whether or not this action can be taken "immediately after you have rolled to see who moves normally from the KO'd Dugout to the Reserves box and use it on a player who has failed to get the 4+ guaranteeing that important player returns to the match?"

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by GalakStarscraper »

Knock yourself out good sir. At this point it clearly doesn't matter what I say. I've told you the rule was definitely meant to be immediate for both parts. I answered this 6 years ago and I am happy to see I said exactly the same thing now.

If folks want one part to only be immediate and the other to be whenever the heck they feel like it ... go for it ... I am the champion for leagues running the rules as they think makes the most sense ... I totally believe BB should be played the way you think is most fun in your house.. Just know if I'm the rules judge at an event (and I've still been in that role every year) ... just know I'll rule against that.

If you want it to read for certain a different way than in the rulebook for either side of the argument ... feel free to discuss it with Andy ... that is the person you need to convince these days.

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Re: Apothecary and players already in the KO'd dugout

Post by Garrick »

GalakStarscraper wrote:At this point it clearly doesn't matter what I say.
Not true, otherwise I wouldn't have put all that effort into trying to get you to see my point of view, you are the boss :wink:

TBH I am not that attached to the "new use" being approved as it was not me that spotted how the wording of the rules allowed it nor have I ever used an Apothecary in that way.

However legal training, commercial contract writing and pedantry meant I had to see it through to the end and I actually think the inclusion of the "new use" would marginally improve my favourite table top game.

I will buy you a beer if you are in Orebro this October, I am hard to miss as I am 6'4" and will be wearing a kilt 8)

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