BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

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CyberedElf
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Re: BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

Post by CyberedElf »

dode74 wrote:
Jorgen_CAB wrote:Are you seriously arguing that I can't judge the intent for myself!?!
Yes, and neither can I. The ONLY thing we have with which to assess intent is the written word.
We can judge intent, but we can not impose our judgment on others as long as it is subjective. (Unless you are the commissioner.) Dode appears to refuse to accept any subjective.
dode74 wrote:
When you couple this with other part of the rulebook that clearly state the off-season is outside the season you clearly start to doubt the written text as what they truly intended.
Which bit clearly states "the off-season is outside the season"?
The off-season rules say they replace a portion of the Post-match sequence. Not that this resolves anything.

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Jorgen_CAB
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Re: BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

dode74 wrote:It's only relevant if you try to explain your interpretation: that's my point.
Which is what I am trying to show... simply say there is a case for believing the written text is wrong, not that it doesn't say what it say. ;)
dode74 wrote:Which bit clearly states "the off-season is outside the season"? Regardless, there is a listed procedure for WTR and adding one to "the number of seasons they have completed" and that procedure is unambiguous.
Seriously!?! I quoted text from the book a few pages ago that clearly show the off-season are outside of the season.
On page 18 in the "How Leagues work" it explains in the middle of the section. "At the end of each season is a short Tournament, consisting of two semi-finals and a final, at the end of which one team will emerge victorious! A new season can then begin (after a period of out-of-game downtime.)..."
On page 19 in the "Playing a Season" it explains in the last bit of the section. "Once all of the season's games have played, the season ends in a spectacular fashion with the play-offs. Then there is a period of Downtime, followed by the start of a new season."
To me it is clear the Downtime is not part of the season but a separate phase.
The order of business is "Season 1", "Off-Season", "Season 2", "Off-Season", "Season 3", etc...

I make a case for the intent, not the rules as written.
dode74 wrote:I doubt it. When you write rules and procedures (I've done a fair bit myself in the aviation world) the intent is usually very clear to you, but that's only because you have a prior expectation of the interpretation. That's one reason you give these things to other people to proof-read. With a team of 2 I doubt Andy and James had much leeway in that department.
Common, rules as written are wrong all the time, there are errata and FAQ to prove that.

I have written many rules myself and through the process rules can get changed over and over before they are finalized. Happens all the time. Proofreading will not catch everything... certainly not this kind of problem.

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Re: BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

Post by dode74 »

Which is what I am trying to show... simply say there is a case for believing the written text is wrong, not that it doesn't say what it say. ;)
But that's a circular argument. It's reliant on something the text does not say to prove the text means something it does not say!
I make a case for the intent, not the rules as written.
Then you're making the case for something you don't and can't know.
Common, rules as written are wrong all the time, there are errata and FAQ to prove that.
That was my point! You were the one saying that "they truly would have understood would need a better explanation with a good example."
Proofreading will not catch everything... certainly not this kind of problem.
Precisely!

Regardless, there is a listed procedure for the Downtime which states when to roll for WTR and when to add one to "the number of seasons they have completed" and that procedure is unambiguous.

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CyberedElf
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Re: BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

Post by CyberedElf »

Jorgen_CAB wrote:
On page 18 in the "How Leagues work" it explains in the middle of the section. "At the end of each season is a short Tournament, consisting of two semi-finals and a final, at the end of which one team will emerge victorious! A new season can then begin (after a period of out-of-game downtime.)..."
out-of-game downtime =/= out-of-season downtime
Your quote clearly states that the downtime is before the next season, not that it is not part of the previous season. I agree it is more evidence to show intent other than Dode's absolute. The "end of each season is a short Tournament." If the Post-match sequence is considered part of the tournament, it changes nothing.

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Jorgen_CAB
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Re: BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

CyberedElf wrote:
Jorgen_CAB wrote:
On page 18 in the "How Leagues work" it explains in the middle of the section. "At the end of each season is a short Tournament, consisting of two semi-finals and a final, at the end of which one team will emerge victorious! A new season can then begin (after a period of out-of-game downtime.)..."
out-of-game downtime =/= out-of-season downtime
Your quote clearly states that the downtime is before the next season, not that it is not part of the previous season. I agree it is more evidence to show intent other than Dode's absolute. The "end of each season is a short Tournament." If the Post-match sequence is considered part of the tournament, it changes nothing.
The problem is that similar statement can be found on a few locations in the text, there are one more from the two I gave which I also quoted before.

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Re: BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

Post by CyberedElf »

While it makes sense that the off-season is not part of the season, that is never made explicit anywhere I have seen.

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Re: BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

Post by Darkson »

So, is it time to talk about Clawpomb?

Regardless, as I have no dog in the fight, at the moment I'd have to agree with Dode, who has the "Rules As Written" and one of the two guys behind this iteration of BB backing his view.
The opposing view seems to burrow done to "I don't like it" and trying to read (and twist) the RAW into something they don't say.

Either way, it needs to be made clearer, and there is no-one that can do that until Andy/James (or someone else from GW) come out and says so and clarifies it in a FAQ.

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Re: BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

dode74 wrote:
Which is what I am trying to show... simply say there is a case for believing the written text is wrong, not that it doesn't say what it say. ;)
But that's a circular argument. It's reliant on something the text does not say to prove the text means something it does not say!
I make a case for the intent, not the rules as written.
Then you're making the case for something you don't and can't know.
Common, rules as written are wrong all the time, there are errata and FAQ to prove that.
That was my point! You were the one saying that "they truly would have understood would need a better explanation with a good example."
Proofreading will not catch everything... certainly not this kind of problem.
Precisely!

Regardless, there is a listed procedure for the Downtime which states when to roll for WTR and when to add one to "the number of seasons they have completed" and that procedure is unambiguous.
Are you really don't understanding what I'm arguing about!?!

I NEVER said that my argument is "BLACK and WHITE", it is all about PROBABILITY. At some point you get to a high enough PROBABILITY that you question the rules as written. In this case based on many several factors such as illogical mechanics, wording of the section, previous wording of when a season ends etc.. All this lead to me thinking there is a HIGH ENOUGH probability that the intent was different than what the rules as written show.

And many other people will come to the same conclusion, at least all I spoken to in real life so far. The number so far is up to seven of seven... ;)

Even when I point out that as written three season must pass they all said it is stupidly written and illogical. I don't say this as if they are right, just what people seem to think spontaneously about that rules section. It need to be clarified.

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Jorgen_CAB
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Re: BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

Darkson wrote:So, is it time to talk about Clawpomb?
Well, PO is no more a skill in the game... more or less... so is it really a thing in BB2016... ;)

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Re: BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

CyberedElf wrote:While it makes sense that the off-season is not part of the season, that is never made explicit anywhere I have seen.
No, it is not explicitly said it is in between seasons just implied in a few places. Read all the league rules and it is implied several times.

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Re: BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

Post by dode74 »

Jorgen_CAB wrote:Are you really don't understanding what I'm arguing about!?!

I NEVER said that my argument is "BLACK and WHITE", it is all about PROBABILITY. At some point you get to a high enough PROBABILITY that you question the rules as written. In this case based on many several factors such as illogical mechanics, wording of the section, previous wording of when a season ends etc.. All this lead to me thinking there is a HIGH ENOUGH probability that the intent was different than what the rules as written show.

And many other people will come to the same conclusion, at least all I spoken to in real life so far. The number so far is up to seven of seven... ;)

Even when I point out that as written three season must pass they all said it is stupidly written and illogical. I don't say this as if they are right, just what people seem to think spontaneously about that rules section. It need to be clarified.
Oh I get it. It's an argument ad populum where your populum consists of "people you have spoken to".
Edit: ok, that's a bit harsh. Sure, it needs clarification. My argument is not that, though: my argument is, as written, it is 3 seasons.
No, it is not explicitly said it is in between seasons just implied in a few places. Read all the league rules and it is implied several times.
You inferring is not the same thing as the rules implying. Implying displays intent, while inference is you assuming an intent which is not necessarily there. In this case you are inferring.

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Re: BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

dode74 wrote:
Jorgen_CAB wrote:Are you really don't understanding what I'm arguing about!?!

I NEVER said that my argument is "BLACK and WHITE", it is all about PROBABILITY. At some point you get to a high enough PROBABILITY that you question the rules as written. In this case based on many several factors such as illogical mechanics, wording of the section, previous wording of when a season ends etc.. All this lead to me thinking there is a HIGH ENOUGH probability that the intent was different than what the rules as written show.

And many other people will come to the same conclusion, at least all I spoken to in real life so far. The number so far is up to seven of seven... ;)

Even when I point out that as written three season must pass they all said it is stupidly written and illogical. I don't say this as if they are right, just what people seem to think spontaneously about that rules section. It need to be clarified.
Oh I get it. It's an argument ad populum where your populum consists of "people you have spoken to".
No, it is not explicitly said it is in between seasons just implied in a few places. Read all the league rules and it is implied several times.
You inferring is not the same thing as the rules implying. Implying displays intent, while inference is you assuming an intent which is not necessarily there. In this case you are inferring.
I explicitly told you that the people I talked to had NOTHING to do with the VALIDITY of your interpretation... just how confusing it seem to be to them. I have no idea how others will view it. I was pretty clear on that point. Seven of seven people at least is the beginning of a trend... ;)

And you STILL don't get what I talk about... I talk about PROBABILITY... with enough inconsistency you get to a point where you suspect something's not right.

I just hope they will clear it up and make a better case for the rules as written and clearly state if players are suppose to play for three seasons or not before the roll. Mainly based on it being illogical if nothing else.

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dode74
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Re: BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

Post by dode74 »

Just missed the edit above ;)
Edit: ok, that's a bit harsh. Sure, it needs clarification. My argument is not that, though: my argument is, as written, it is 3 seasons.
I don't get why 3 seasons is illogical.

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Re: BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

dode74 wrote:Just missed the edit above ;)
Edit: ok, that's a bit harsh. Sure, it needs clarification. My argument is not that, though: my argument is, as written, it is 3 seasons.
I don't get why 3 seasons is illogical.
two completed seasons = three seasons played for the WTR roll.

I never really contended that as written it is three seasons.

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Re: BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

Post by CyberedElf »

High enough probability supports belief, but is not proof.
The rulebook has the authority to define what number of "seasons completed" is rolled against. Therefore it is internally consistent and "logical," even if I don't think it is reasonable.
Inferring is an assumption of implied intent. I think it is reasonable to infer something more than what is explicitly written. But someone who infers differently is not wrong unless the authority clarifies. I expect a clarification opposed to the rules as written. Until then, it is just my opinion. No matter how likely I think it is.

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