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 Post subject: T16 wizard and TD (LRB6)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:47 am 
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SO, it's the last T16 and I push my opponent's BC next to the endzone. I have a player in the endzone (he may or may not have taken an action this turn) and a wizard remaining. I lightning the BC who is Knocked Down and the ball scatters into the hands of my player. Is it a TD? Can I even use the wizard?

I ask specifically about wizards because they can only be used "immediately after the turn of the team that induced him has ended even if it ended with a turnover." So if I am using the wizard it was my T16 before I use him is the match over on announcing I am using him? If the match is not over and I can use him and the score counts then whose turn am I scoring in, given I can only score in my or my opponent's turn?


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 Post subject: Re: T16 wizard and TD (LRB6)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:45 pm 
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I'd say No and Yes respectively.

As you point out, you can only score in your turn or your opponents turn. This is specified in the rules on page 15 of the CRP (don't have BB2016 to hand, I'm not aware of this having changed):
Scoring Touchdowns In Your Turn wrote:
A team scores a touchdown during their turn when one of their players is standing in the opposing team's End Zone while holding the ball at the end of any of your players' Actions.

Scoring In he Opponent's Turn wrote:
If one of your players is holding the ball in the opposing team's End Zoen at any point during your opponent's turn then your team scores a touchdown immediately.

In the situation you suggest, your player obtains the ball after all actions have completed, so there is no end of action to trigger the touchdown. Equally, your opponent does not take another turn so you never have the opportunity to score in the opposing turn.

Whether you're allowed to use it it is a little more woolly, but I'd allow it. Blood Bowl has pre and post turn phases which are not explicity defined in the rules (as far as I am aware) but multiple events refer to immediately before/after a turn to confirm their existence. Therefore, T16 has a post turn phase where the Wizard (and Spcial Play cards etc) can act.

As an aside, Shadespire has a much more clearly defined turn structure, with an explicit post turn phase for playing cards which alternates between the active player and his opponent. It could be a useful basis for clarifying the anatomy of a Blood Bowl turn/match.


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 Post subject: Re: T16 wizard and TD (LRB6)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:06 pm 
Star Player
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The wizard description has it happening after the end of the turn. As the turn must already have ended to use the wizard, then it can't be a touchdown, which must occur at the end of any of your players' Actions. (i.e. the end of your final player's actions happens, then later the wizard casts his spell)

The sensible thing anyway, is: If you have a wizard and its your T16, why aren't you using it before your turn to either free the ball, or clear a path to the ball? Perchance as it doesn't raise a question that would never occur on the field? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: T16 wizard and TD (LRB6)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:06 pm 
Super Star
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I can picture the opposing player stood in his own endzone with the ball. Dont want to Lightning Bolt that guy as the ball has a 3 in 8 chance of going into the crowd. Rather 3d blitz him out of the Endzone. Triple push rr Triple push. Wizard left unused. Red faces all round :P


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 Post subject: Re: T16 wizard and TD (LRB6)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:48 pm 
Super Star
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mawph wrote:
The sensible thing anyway, is: If you have a wizard and its your T16, why aren't you using it before your turn to either free the ball, or clear a path to the ball? Perchance as it doesn't raise a question that would never occur on the field? ;)


Let he who has never forgotten he induced a wizard cast the first stone.

/sits down
/doesn't throw a rock

Anyway, Rules as Written seem pretty clear, the rules list two ways to score a TD, in your own turn and in your opponent's. By definition, the wizard can't be used until the end of the turn, so after turn 16 the game is over. Injuries would still count, but the Touchdown wouldn't because the player did not have the ball in the End Zone during his turn or his opponent's.

It sort of "feels like" you should resolve every action, but rules-wise it seems like tossing the winning basket after the buzzer sounded.

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 Post subject: Re: T16 wizard and TD (LRB6)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:49 pm 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:55 pm
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Ok, so it seems this is specifically different to a similar T16 situation where your own BC fails a GFI (for example) to scatter the ball into the hands of your own player in the EZ. That one is a TD in your own turn, I believe, because the GFI ends the Action and everything else is resolved before your opponent's next turn (which will be the end of the match) happens.


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 Post subject: Re: T16 wizard and TD (LRB6)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:27 pm 
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dode74 wrote:
Ok, so it seems this is specifically different to a similar T16 situation where your own BC fails a GFI (for example) to scatter the ball into the hands of your own player in the EZ. That one is a TD in your own turn, I believe, because the GFI ends the Action and everything else is resolved before your opponent's next turn (which will be the end of the match) happens.

I'd agree it's different but don't see B&C as an exception to the existing rules. To my mind, the failed GFI initiates the end of the action and a subsequent Turnover. However, the scatter, injury roll for B&C etc all happen as part of the action. Therefore, it is still a Touchdown as it is held by your player at the end of the action.


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 Post subject: Re: T16 wizard and TD (LRB6)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:36 pm 
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BC = Ball Carrier

Quote:
To my mind, the failed GFI initiates the end of the action and a subsequent Turnover. However, the scatter, injury roll for B&C etc all happen as part of the action. Therefore, it is still a Touchdown as it is held by your player at the end of the action.


From CRP:
A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further
Actions that turn, and any Action being taken ends immediately
even if it was only partially completed. Make armour and injury
rolls for players that were knocked down, and if the ball was
dropped then roll to see where it bounces to normally. Stunned
players should be turned face up, and then the opposing coach
may start to take his turn.

The Action is completed immediately, so the rolls for bouncing etc happen after all Actions are completed. The Turn, however, doesn't end until everything is resolved.


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 Post subject: Re: T16 wizard and TD (LRB6)
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:14 am 
Super Star
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dode74 wrote:
BC = Ball Carrier

Whoops, although it doesn't change my argument. It depends on your interpretation of the Turnover wording (and I'd be curious to see the clarification that the Touchdown stands in this case) and the Action ending immediately. In my mind, what ever triggered the Turnover ends the voluntary part of the action. The controlling player has no more decisions to make. However, the non-optional parts of the action must still be completed and this is clarified by listing them.
Now that's how I understand and interpret the rules. Based on what is written, I can see an argument that the action ends at the point of Turnover and everything else happens in a separate 'wrap-up' phase. However, that would then suggest the Turnover would not stand as it occurs after the action has ended.


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 Post subject: Re: T16 wizard and TD (LRB6)
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:04 am 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

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Quote:
I'd be curious to see the clarification that the Touchdown stands in this case


viewtopic.php?f=24&t=41277&hilit=touchdown+turnover

Clarification from Galak is towards the end of the thread. It's only 4 pages :)


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 Post subject: Re: T16 wizard and TD (LRB6)
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:23 pm 
Super Star
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Don't remember commenting on that thread but nice to see my reasoning hasn't changed.
Still see the two cases as entirely distinct though. The GFI Touchdown occurs during the wrap-up of the action that caused the Turnover or before the turn ends at least. The wizard very specifically occurs between turns where we have no rules for considering it to be a touchdown.


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 Post subject: Re: T16 wizard and TD (LRB6)
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:20 pm 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

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I would agree that they are different cases.

Thanks for the chat :)


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