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 Post subject: Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's why!
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:31 pm 
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Warning Incoming Rant:

Our BB Season typically runs from January - end of April. I am the commissioner.

Last year we decided to try the campaign system as outlined in the new version of BB. This included rules from Death Zone Season I.

Our league allows players to play at their own pace. They can play as little or as often as they wish.

Their was a hard reset on all of our teams at the beginning of last year. All teams started fresh at 1M TV. As we are approaching our second season I have used the following logistics for resolving downtime funds:

Starting Funds: 1.1 M
Win: 10K
Draw: 5K
Loss: 0K
TD scored: 5K
CAS inflicted: 5K
Treasury stored: x amount

As it is the second year no players will be forced into retirement and as such no players will have a premium of 20K to return for a second season.

This year we will again have a mix of new teams and old teams in our league.

So far I have a spread from 1M to 1.9M.

If I wanted this type of variance I could have left things as CRP without forcing all the superfluous calculations. I have returning teams which will get upgrades (more money to spend then their team has today). I have returning teams which will get a small slap on the hand for being near 2M TV (having to lose a non-important player or two).

Also - The expense rules where you lose random cash is awful imo.

Based on our league structure there is absolutely no benefit to using the new BB campaign ruleset. I am sad I wasted my time and money in the hopes this would provide a usable salary cap for the opening of our new season.

Starting next year I may implement a baseline salary cap for each team. New teams start at 1M as normal. Returning teams have to get their team under 1.4M or something along that number. Screw the calculations which imo do not do anything to balance the playing field.

Any other league's out their which have had a better experience? I am curious to know what we are missing...

Thanks,
Michael

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 Post subject: Re: Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's wh
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:51 pm 
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We’re similar to you in the league I run and we’re just going through a redraft at the end of a 2nd season since the rules changed. You’d be amazed how much “wants to retire” throws into the mix.

I really like it though it’s was a struggle playing with high tv differences in some situation. We have an open league with monthly “events” totalling 6 over a season and we have new coaches starting midseason. This has prompted a switch to 2 divisions being proposed for next season to introduce newer coaches to a more friendly environment in division 2.

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 Post subject: Re: Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's wh
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:41 am 
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DZ2 leagues actually function pretty well if you play them rules as written. You seem to have introduced a number of house rules that are compounding your problem, which seems to be the wide variance in redraft cash.

The point of redrafting is supposed to create a cycle of players leaving and being replaced at the end of each season. Not all players - and with a decent amount of flexibility for the ones you keep, but it's supposed to create a cycle.

You've houseruled in 100k of extra cash by making the starting cash 1.1M instead of 1M that new teams start with. Plus instead of awarding 10k cash per match played, you're only giving it to the winner for some reason. This will significantly contribute to variance, but specifically it will make it a LOT harder for new teams to establish themselves.

But the biggest houserule is that you're simply allowing players to play as many matches as they want. DZ1 stipulates a season length of between 5-8 rounds, plus a maximum of one friendly per match. This basically creates a floor and ceiling for the redraft cash. It does give an advantage to coaches that play more often, but it's not intended to function properly if you let coaches play as many matches as they want.

Realistic redraft cash amounts on this basis should only vary by a few 100K plus whatever is in treasury. Expensive mistakes is there to limit the impact of treasury, but when combined with the sponsorship rules in DZ2 cash flows very freely, and means that established teams that have sponsorship contracts can quickly rebuild rookies into their roster if they are forced to cut any in the redraft, creating the player rotation that I mentioned. But when you've got a few ongoing sponsorship contracts attached to your team, expensive mistakes is really not a problem at all. Honestly if expensive mistakes doesn't hit my treasury I just end up blowing the excess on inducements.

I'd suggest incorporating DZ2 rules ASAP. The sponsorship rules are almost certainly a necessary part of allowing teams to climb to higher TR within each season.


But yes, your players need to get used to the fact that if they don't play any games, they're going to be significantly behind on TR compared to the teams that do play a lot of games. This was also true in CRP though, so I don't think a lot has changed in this regard.

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 Post subject: Re: Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's wh
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:37 am 
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Wylder wrote:
You've houseruled in 100k of extra cash by making the starting cash 1.1M instead of 1M that new teams start with. Plus instead of awarding 10k cash per match played, you're only giving it to the winner for some reason. This will significantly contribute to variance, but specifically it will make it a LOT harder for new teams to establish themselves.


While it makes thematically sense that a crappy team that did not win a single game might have trouble finding sponsors for season 2, it will aggravate the problem for sure. Successful teams will generally have more TV, more touchdowns and more casualties. Not sure why OP is criticizing the rules in Death zone 1, while not following them. So 10,000 gold per game played. Success is rewarded with the touchdown and casualtiy bonuses.


Wylder wrote:
Realistic redraft cash amounts on this basis should only vary by a few 100K plus whatever is in treasury. Expensive mistakes is there to limit the impact of treasury,


BB2016 also removed gold to TV, banking, and TV changing when you buy inducements. This allow the higher TV team to spend gold on inducements without being punished for doing so. Inducements like mercenaries, bloodweiser, or apothecaries could be used as a cash sink, while it is limited by expensive mistakes, so the high TV team will not be able to recruit Morg 'N' Thorg this way (Not taking rostered stars into account).


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 Post subject: Re: Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's wh
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:42 am 
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celticgriffon wrote:
So far I have a spread from 1M to 1.9M.


Would you mind sharing team TV, gold, game count, touchdown count and, casualty count with us?


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 Post subject: Re: Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's wh
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:43 pm 
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Without posting loads of data (our software takes care of the calculation as well) their will be variance even in fixed game leagues.

I realized that the opening calculation should be 1M instead of 1.1M. Some of the teams have already gone through the process, however, so it is too late for me to adjust.

I also realize allowing 10K for a win, 5K for a draw, and 0K for a loss further exasperates things. I should have just placed 5k for each instead.

But still. If you reward more for a win/draw, td's, and cas you are penalizing poor performing teams. Yes, the teams with more success will have a higher TV (in theory - more skills and advancements). Does this balance out?

If the ultimate goal is to balance new teams (1M TV) and veteran teams does this succeed in its task? Was that even the goal with the new campaign structure?

I have always felt an open game structure in a league offers a lot more flexibility than a fixed game structure. Too often players cannot arrange their game in time and then things start falling apart. We offer two ways to make play-offs - win % and league points. It allows adults with busy schedules to partake without the stress of getting their match in each week. Some players want to play lots and spam games. They will probably make playoffs if they have a decent win/draw rate. Others want to play more casually. If they win their games they play they will get in to the post season.

Would it not be much, much easier to implement a salary cap after each season? New teams start at 1M. Veteran teams gain an extra 250K / year played or something of that ilk? Or perhaps veteran teams have to get their team under 1.5M (or whatever value the league prefers). Keep the redraft (extra 20k / season if a player retires) as is. Leave the TD's, CAS and games won/lost/drawn out of the equation altogether. Let all the veteran coaches make tough choices in what to cut for the next season.

Cheers,
mb

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 Post subject: Re: Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's wh
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:06 pm 
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celticgriffon wrote:
I also realize allowing 10K for a win, 5K for a draw, and 0K for a loss further exasperates things. I should have just placed 5k for each instead.

This would still be a house rule. It's 10k per match played.

celticgriffon wrote:
If the ultimate goal is to balance new teams (1M TV) and veteran teams does this succeed in its task? Was that even the goal with the new campaign structure?

This was never the goal and I'm not sure why you think old teams should be dragged down to the level of new teams? Progression is supposed to be meaningful. The only thing the redraft rules are designed to do is ensure that some player rotation exists, especially within ultra-high-TR bash teams that simply can't be expected to lose players on-pitch.


celticgriffon wrote:
Would it not be much, much easier to implement a salary cap after each season? New teams start at 1M. Veteran teams gain an extra 250K / year played or something of that ilk? Or perhaps veteran teams have to get their team under 1.5M (or whatever value the league prefers). Keep the redraft (extra 20k / season if a player retires) as is. Leave the TD's, CAS and games won/lost/drawn out of the equation altogether. Let all the veteran coaches make tough choices in what to cut for the next season.

Cheers,
mb

You can house rule this way if you wish. You don't seem averse to house rules and don't seem to have actually tried playing GW's rules yet. I wouldn't play in a league with this ruleset though. It's garbage and after season 4 or so, would completely remove the player rotation that the new rules are designed to introduce.

Despite your personal preferences however, I think your thread is silly. The thread title is "Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's why!" and the answer is simply that you're not playing those rules at all. You're playing garbage houserules and I'm not surprised that they haven't worked out.

Perhaps you should try the actual published rules that everyone else is playing, then get back to us on what you think?

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 Post subject: Re: Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's wh
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:34 pm 
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Wylder - I have been playing BB since 1st edition. Ran very successful leagues (40+ participants) since 2nd ed. I have supported, own and played GW games since the early 80's.

I have a pretty good grasp on what works and what doesn't.

Don't patronize me by saying I should stick with the GW rule system that everyone else is playing. Ummm... Please. If I were to make a guess most leagues have stuck with the CRP.

Please do tell where your interpretation of the new campaign (including the redraft system) was the actual goal of the designers of BB 16 in comparison to how I interpreted their design goals?

I genuinely want to give the new rule set a shot. We eliminated most of our house rules last year to try things as designed. But in my opinion it doesn't seem to deliver what I wanted out of a revised campaign league system.

In the rules, if everyone plays the same number of matches each season and then everyone gets 10k per match what is the point?

I am not about to get into a pissing match with you, however. If you want to offer meaningful and constructive commentary please feel free. If you need a punching bag sorry... move along. My ideas are just as important as anyone else's.

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 Post subject: Re: Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's wh
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:20 am 
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You misunderstand me.

I don't really care what you play. But I do worry that your thread is inappropriately named. My responses are intended to ensure that other people understand that these aren't legitimate complaints about GW ruleset and shouldn't influence their opinion of whether to try them out.

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 Post subject: Re: Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's wh
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:52 am 
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If you allow players to play significantly different number of games, you are breaking a system arguably already flawed.
Quote:
If the ultimate goal is to balance new teams (1M TV) and veteran teams does this succeed in its task? Was that even the goal with the new campaign structure?

I want to say that was never the goal, but I've seen some screwy things come out from GW at that time . . .
I do think part of the goal was to have more balance for returning teams regardless of seasons played. Rookie teams will always be the underdog against any returning, experienced team.
I understand and agree with the desire to have an open format. My league uses one, and we did need to tweak some things to make it work. And, still not everyone is happy with it.
The expensive mistakes rule (or something based on money not TV) is necessary if you include treasury in redraft.
You obviously have no desire to play the league rules exactly as written. (Neither do I.) So let's talk about what your goals are.

Do you want rookie teams to be immediately competitive?
During redraft, do you want to reward teams for having played frequently?
During redraft, do you want to reward doing well (win, TD, cas, playoff success)?
Are you willing to put a maximum game limit/season?
Can coaches play multiple teams?

If you had enough coaches, I would highly recommend two divisions. One rookie teams only. This is the easy solution to bring balance at the beginning of the season. (My league does not have enough coaches to do this.)

My league came up with:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jm0 ... sp=sharing
Key considerations for us:
Open scheduling
Everyone can play in playoffs
Reward playing more games (we want people to desire to be active)
Bragging rights are primarily from playoffs more than season games
Some members of league try to stay as close to the book as possible (not always successful)

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 Post subject: Re: Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's wh
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:57 pm 
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celticgriffon wrote:
Without posting loads of data (our software takes care of the calculation as well) their will be variance even in fixed game leagues.


These are the teams that played matches in 2017:

Image

I suspect that It's just an elf and The Middenheim Massacre are the teams that already underwent a redraft. While there is not a world of difference, I think it is clear that losers are punished too much in your original rule set compared to BB2016.

Spreadsheet here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

It is editable. The values with the yellow background will change the rules for the rightmost column.


Last edited by kyrre on Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's wh
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:27 pm 
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celticgriffon wrote:
I genuinely want to give the new rule set a shot. We eliminated most of our house rules last year to try things as designed. But in my opinion it doesn't seem to deliver what I wanted out of a revised campaign league system.

celticgriffon wrote:
Any other league's out their which have had a better experience? I am curious to know what we are missing...

Just picking these two comments up, we've been trying the GW RAW and think they give an interesting balance I now want to take a team through 3-4 seasons and see how they turn out.

Celticgriffon, I think you need to try and not take offence: your comments do seem to say two different things. 1: we want to try the GW system but then 2: you list a few things that are functionally quite different and are fundamental going to change how the rules work.

Which is it, do you want to run a DZ1/2 League structure which will be closed or not. If not you should probably stick to CRPs Open League.

I think you need to lose all house rules then ask this question and play it as written - that's what's missing

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 Post subject: Re: Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's wh
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:05 pm 
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celticgriffon wrote:
If the ultimate goal is to balance new teams (1M TV) and veteran teams does this succeed in its task? Was that even the goal with the new campaign structure?

Wylder wrote:
This was never the goal and I'm not sure why you think old teams should be dragged down to the level of new teams? Progression is supposed to be meaningful. The only thing the redraft rules are designed to do is ensure that some player rotation exists, especially within ultra-high-TR bash teams that simply can't be expected to lose players on-pitch.

My understanding (and I'm not sure of the source now but I believe it was an interview or comment from James Hewitt) was that feedback had been that BB leagues were most fun in the 1400-1800TV (or 1600-2000TV maybe?). I also think that this feedback dates back to BBRC days rather than being a recent development. Regardless, the aim behind redrafting was to keep teams in this sweet spot, cycling up and down over seasons.
The figures provided in DeathZone were also explicitly based around their league structure of 16-20 games in a season. If you are playing more or less matches, then you should tweak the figures accordingly.

In our league, we're on our second season of BB2016 rules, so only had one redraft. We run a fixed length league of about 12 matches. That makes the 10k per match a little redundant so we went with a 1.2m base plus 10k per TD and CAS plus treasury. Most teams had no real problems with the redraft as they were still reasonably low TV.
Second redraft will be in the new year, so interested to see how that goes.


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 Post subject: Re: Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's wh
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:28 pm 
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Hey everyone,

Thanks for the input. Quite a few teams have already gone through the end of season procedure. More than It's Just an Elf. But not all of them have yet. Our champions, Unnatural Selections, still have to update and I am curious where they will fall.

CyberdElf - I have been looking at your document and I really like what you have in there. It allows players to customize their BB experience using a combination of CRP and BB16/DZ. If you have DZ II and want to use it you have to have a copy and agree with your opponent. This way players can participate in the league and have the experience they want to have based on the large set of optional rules available.

To answer your questions:
Do you want rookie teams to be immediately competitive? No, absolutely not. I do want established teams to move into a new season below a threshold however. I have no problem playing a new team vs a 2M TV team. But newer players seem overwhelmed when they have a whole new team to pick and choose with inducements.

During redraft, do you want to reward teams for having played frequently? Yes and No. I think playing frequently already gives the benefits in terms of more skills and advancements and often money. I am not sure this needs to be enhanced in the redraft.

During redraft, do you want to reward doing well (win, TD, cas, playoff success)? Again yes and no. As per the question above. There should be a benefit for winning a cup or placing top three. I think our campaign incentives help on that front. But often successful teams in real sports need to break up their player base as players want more $$ and to come in under the salary caps.

Are you willing to put a maximum game limit/season? This season we are only going to allow each coach to player each other coach one time. In the past we had an early and late season. You could play each opposing coach once in each. This is why one team has 29 games and others hover around 14 or so. This past year I found our Wood Elf team spammed games like crazy. And this gave her top slot in play-offs. I really didn't like that the win ratio wasn't that good. I think our adjustment to one game / opponent will greatly help.

Can coaches play multiple teams? No. One team / coach.

Kyrre - thanks for the detailed analysis. Once all the teams have gone through the redraft I would be curious to see the numbers re-run. Perhaps we all can learn things from what happened in my league this past season.

Wylder - I perhaps should apologize. When you stated my league was garbage I did take offence; I felt you were being quite harsh. Our league really isn't garbage - we all have a lot of fun and that is ultimately the point of BB. I will definitely adjust the values for next season. I do like the redraft of the team concept. I wanted a system that would force tough choices for each coach at the end of the season. Top teams would have to fire players, scale back re-rolls and aux staff. Bottom teams would perhaps gain a small boost to help them season II. I guess perhaps I should be unhappy with myself for not creating defined goals for my league and making adjustments to achieve them.

Loki - I want to have the open play with the adjustments stated above (one potential game / opponent for this season instead of two potential games / opponent for the past 4 seasons). This will move games played to a closer median value. It will also mean we can likely not worry about splitting League Points and Win % for playoff qualification. It will be harder to spam games just because you have availability anytime. Most of us can't play too often.

Vanguard - if you are entering the second season then no players would be forced into retirement yet. I am curious how things go -keep us posted. Also, should the starting point for season 2 have been 1.12 M instead of 1.2 M? That was the same type of clerical error I made unfortunately.

I think ultimately I had a vision on what I was hoping the new ruleset with DZ to achieve. I wonder if BB leagues might benefit from a handbook guide to various league structures using everything from 3rd orig ruleset to LRB 6.0 CRP to BB16. Pros and Cons of different structures so to speak. Open vs Structured play. How different league options affect treasury, development, game play, etc. I want tough decisions for each coach after each match and after each season. Should you fire someone, what skills should you take, should you bank money for next year, how far can you push your savings account, how do you keep your team at a value where you don't bleed inducement money, etc.

IMO - The ultimate goal of a league commissioner is to ensure players have fun and to be challenged to improve their coaching skills. We played hundreds of games with original 3rd edtion rule book. Yes, the era where you could possibly start a match with 3 players. But we still had fun just the same and no matter the ruleset any league can be successful.

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 Post subject: Re: Quite unhappy with the BB 16 campaign system.. Here's wh
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:41 am 
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I like giving advice, but I don't take offense if its not taken.

I have a few suggestions that seem to align with your goals.
Redraft funds = 1.X + treasury + playoff bonus + no charge for Fan Factor
Select X to create your desired threshold, keeping in mind that most people will carry 100k-200k treasury. Treasury and playoff bonus could be the only reward in redraft. This way you do pretty much force every returning team to be below a threshold. You didn't express any desire to reward (during redraft) anything that scales with games. The more someone plays during the season, the more they develop for playoffs, period. I just looked at the stats in the spreadsheet again. I would probably add that any team under 1.X value (counting value of MNG) would not redraft. The coaches that played only three games should not get an immediate boost, but they are also not penalized by season increments.
Let people play multiple games, but every game after the first is a "Friendly" by DZ1 rules.
I might even play the RAW that there is no MVP for Friendlies. (I think this has been erratad, officially there is an MVP.)
With reduced rewards, but same threat of getting hurt, you let people play as much as they want. Or, just limit it to one competitive and one friendly per pair. I don't like limiting how much someone can play, but that is just my bias. The book has rules for reduced reward games, so I would lean towards that.

Obviously this is still not BtB, but I think it matches your stated goals and desires better than the book or what you were doing.

I think GW actually sought feedback for such a league handbook, but I haven't heard anything about it since. I wouldn't be surprised to see more options coming out in future DZ.

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