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 Post subject: The two chaos dwarf dilemmas
 Post Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 9:38 pm 
Star Player
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1) Who to put on the defensive line

One of the things I like about teams like Necro/Undead/Khemri is that they have such cheap, durable linemen.

Looking at the chaos dwarf roster though, you have two choices, Hobgoblins or Chaos Dwarf Blockers. The former are cheap but easily injured, the latter are tough but somewhat expensive. At low TV, I think it is clear you put the dwarves on the line. Av9 with thick skull is so durable that against your average low TV lineup the risk is low.

Once you start getting a fair amount of mb/claw/po on your opponents though, AV9 really isn't going to help you. And at 70k, with slow skill progression, you'll find yourself with 3 perennially rookie dwarves. So who do you put on the defensive line?

2) To minotaur or not to minotaur

The Chaos minotaur is arguably the best big guy in the game. With Strength and Mutation access, doubles are nice, but not that necessary. For example if you get the average one doubles roll, a chaos minotaur can look like

Block, Claw, Tentacles, Stand Firm, Guard, Foul Appearance/Juggernaught

By losing that Mutation access though, the Chaos Dwarf minotaur because a much less valuable player....with a build something like

Block, Guard, Stand Firm, Juggernaught....err...something for the remaining skills?

But unlike Chaos, Chaos Dwarves are somewhat under strength for a bash team. Still...the possibility of having a minotaur eat your blitz on a team as slow as chaos dwarves in problematic. And minotaurs are pricey - their base cost is equal to a wizard. So do you put a mino on your chaos dwarf team? Do you do so only at high or low TV?


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 Post subject: Re: The two chaos dwarf dilemmas
 Post Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 10:19 am 
Super Star
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3) Pick up the ball with a Bull or a Hobgoblin?

And, 4) you can't afford everything you want with 1000k. What do you go without?

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 Post subject: Re: The two chaos dwarf dilemmas
 Post Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 1:11 pm 
Super Star
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Ok, some suggestions here:

1) Who to put on the defensive line:

Chaos Dwarfs unless your opponents have more than two Claw(PO)MB players, then Hobgoblins. Try to build some Wrestle, Fend Hobgoblins to counter the killers. Also at some point expect to have a few Chaos Dwarfs who perpetually die at 0-1 skillup, even without Claw(PO)MB; you can't protect everyone indefinitely.

2) To Minotaur or not to Minotaur:

Not to Minotaur. The only possible exception is if you're in a short (6-10 matches) league and won't be perpetuating the team. And even then, you can live without a 150k AV8 Wild Animal turnover machine with no good skillups. So, I wouldn't Minotaur unless it's just for the lolz.

3) Pick up the ball with a Bull or a Hobgoblin:

Depends on what you're facing. If the opponent is slow, and you have lots of turns, try it with a Bull until they get close or you're running out of time, If they're fast or you have to score quickly, get it with a Hobgoblin. Build a Hobgoblin with Sure Hands and Block even if you give SH to a Bull too; you need it vs Elves/Skaven and when you've only 1-3 turns to score.

4) You can't afford everything you want with 1000k. What do you go without:

Assuming you skip the Mino, you can have 2 of the following 3 things: a) 3 Rerolls (instead of 2), b) 6 Chaos Dwarfs (instead of 5) c) 2 Bull Centaurs (instead of 1). I think that the 3rd reroll and 6th Chaos Dwarf are more important than the 2nd Bull. Reroll, because you've no Ball Handling skills, Pickup/Catch will be with AG 3 or 2 and perhaps you will need to Dodge with AG 2 as well. Also Rerolls cost double afterwards. Chaos Dwarf, because they're reliable and powerful, and they need maximum chances to skillup, given that it is likely to come only from Cas and MVP. You can live without the 2nd Bull at start, because before they get Break Tackle, they're very expensive for what they do, and before they get Block, they're not very reliable. So ideally, you skill one up to Block & Break Tackle ASAP, which means a possible second one is being all expensive and relatively weak for a long time. Furthermore, taking only one Bull allows you to take an Apo from the start, in case your 130k player gets permanently injured.

So, I would start with:

1 Bull Centaur: 1 x 130.000 = 130.000
6 Chaos Dwarfs: 6 x 70.000 = 420.000
4 Hobgoblins: 4 x 40.000 = 160.000
3 Rerolls: 3 x 70.000 = 210.000
1 Apothecary: 1 x 50.000 = 50.000

Total = 970.000

30k in the bank, which means you should be able to buy a 2nd Bull in 2-3 matches, then a Hobgoblin and then nothing except replacement players (replace a Chaos Dwarf before getting the 2nd Bull, if needed).


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 Post subject: Re: The two chaos dwarf dilemmas
 Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:16 am 
Veteran
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For sure no minotaur!

You need your blitz for the bull centaurs and with wild animal the mino is hard to move and he is easy to remove from the pitch as well.
You can have three more hobgoblins with less cost (120k) on your team for one mino and this gives you the option to put three unskilled hobgoblins on the LoS against higher strength teams. And you have some extra player left for fouling :-P

Like every low AG team picking up the ball is critical, the best chance has a hobgoblin with sure hands after you have the ball and the situation is safe you can try a handover to a bull to use his speed for a TD. If the pitch is clear try to score with a dwarf. Hobgoblins are the easiest player to level up, try to move your ssp to the bulls and dwarfs.

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 Post subject: Re: The two chaos dwarf dilemmas
 Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:23 pm 
Star Player
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In relation to the Minotaur, shouldn't there be a discussion about the opponents the team will face and questions about how you use your BCs?

I find a Chaos Mino with tentacles is useful against agile teams...because he has tentacles. Absent that he is not very useful at all. Chaos dwarf minotaurs are unlikely to get tentacles since it requires a doubles...dramatically lowering the value of the player against elves/skaven/etc.

Against bash team though, the argument gets more interesting. In looking at CDw against Chaos or Orcs, they are under strength, and those hobgoblins aren't very useful since they have low armor and only G access.

And as one last point of consideration, who is carrying the ball? If it is a BC (say he got +AG and SH), you've got one blitzer in the other BC and....slow dwarves and weak hobs. I can see a case for a Mino as your second blitzer. If a Hob is carrying the ball though, you have two +ST, fast blitzers, and it is amazing how often people forget BCs can effectively move 9 spaces with some reliability.


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 Post subject: Re: The two chaos dwarf dilemmas
 Post Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 11:27 pm 
Super Star
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You are right about the LOS, CDs when the opo has little claw, hobgoblins when they do.

I'd say that the Minotaur was arguably the worst Big Guy in the game, especially on CDs - you have blackle CDs to blitz and the more mobile ST4 Bulls when they've gotten block, he really isn't worth the risk and is only AV8 so easily taken out.


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 Post subject: Re: The two chaos dwarf dilemmas
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:51 pm 
King of Comedy
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1. Vs non-claw teams, Dwarfs. Vs teams with 2+ Claw: Hobs.

2. Chaos Dwarf minotaurs suck eggs.

3. Pick up with a Bull if you can, with a Hob if you must.

4. Start with only 1 Bull, all 6 Dwarfs, and 3 Re-Rolls. Apoth +30k vs 2 reserve Hobs is a judgment call.

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What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.


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 Post subject: Re: The two chaos dwarf dilemmas
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:26 am 
Da Cynic
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I have a dilemma

my Chorf team got a bit wrecked in my last league game (vs Orcs)

his dice were afire and rolled consistent 10-12 on armour and injury

For my next game against another Chorf team my line-up will be

Dwarf - Guard/Claw
Dwarf - Guard/MB
Dwarf - Guard/MB
Bull - Block/Guard
Bull - Block Guard
hob - dodge
hob - sure hands/+AG
hob - dodge/kick
3 loners

and about 150k in inducements against

5 dwarves with guard/stand firm
1 basic dwarf
2 break tackle bulls (one has Block)
hob - sure hands wrestle
hob - kick
hob - KoR/ +2AG

it doesn't look good for me, as he will control all aspects of the game. I can concede at Kick off with no penalties. What would you advise>?

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 Post subject: Re: The two chaos dwarf dilemmas
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:02 pm 
Super Star
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Ok, first of all, don't concede unless you've no chance to win or a lot of chance to lose lots of players. You have 2x MB and 1x Claw, he has nothing in the way of violent skills, and no reserves. Murder his Blockers one by one!

Second: 150k inducement means wizard, unless you don't use those, then get a mercenary Chaos Dwarf with MB, for even more murderage. Sacrifice the loners and the Dodge Hobbo before anything valuable. You've got as much guard as he, and as much strength too, so it's just in the Armour that he's better than you, and with your killers, that's mitigated pretty well.

Don't despair, sacrifice some slaves to Hashut and go for it! :D

Also, why don't you have Break Tackle on your Bulls?


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 Post subject: Re: The two chaos dwarf dilemmas
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:11 pm 
Da Cynic
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its next on the list truth be told...

I do hate this team though, just cannot like them and I have tried for 17 games now.

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 Post subject: Re: The two chaos dwarf dilemmas
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:24 pm 
Star Player
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I agree - you should not resign the match. Win or lose you are unlikely to take much damage.

Stand Firm/Guard is a good combo, but to ONLY take that on your dwarves seems odd.

For your team, Block/Guard as the first two skills on the bulls is also odd. Generally the first skill is either block or BT, and the second skill is the other one.

I'd really hope to win the kick. With only three dwarves and three loaner hobs, I'd probably put the latter on the D line, but they will leave the field even with your opponent have no mighty blow.

You have a pretty good set of rolls on your rostered hobs, so try and keep them away from those opposing tackle dwarves.

If your opponent is the one with 150 in inducements, and getting a wizard, remember to use a looser cage/screen. Don't let him hit 5+ players. If you are getting the wizard, remember to wait to use it until it will give you a real shot at getting the ball.


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 Post subject: Re: The two chaos dwarf dilemmas
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:34 pm 
King of Comedy
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I second Dr. Von Richten's post.

Your trouble with the team might have something to do with your Guard Bulls. Guard is not a Bull skill.

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What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.


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