Lizardman Playbook

[garion]

In any event, I thought my strategy was good, and that grinding and preventing a score was better than giving up a quick one.

Aboslutley the guide guide does state as you say that lizards are capable of shutting an opponent out completely and trying to do so is no bad thing. Exerting this type of pressure will often result in your opponent being forced to score earlier than they would like. or force them in to a mistake from which you can capitalise and score either way is fine. The important thing is the application of pressure and the screening technique of defending because as said it will force the matter.

[Greyhound]

you're missing my favourite starting roster for league play:

6 skinks
5 Saurus
4 RR

The reason I pick 4 RR is to minimise the lack of block, I will try to get my saurus skilled as fast as I can and these 4 RR are essentials to make blocks contact, if things go to plan you can even reroll simple push and try to get a knock down which is essential to level up and use the speed of the big lizzies.

You will have to account for a skink loss every 2 games so I see the team going like this:

game1: 6s + 5S
game2: 6s + 5S
game3: 5s + 6S
game4: 5s + 6S+ apo

Again this is primarily geared at getting the Saurus to do something with all this ST and get some early knock downs.

If you ask about the Krox, I induce him as Merc if I play in an established league, and I live without him if I play other TV1000.


We also differ in Skill progression as I tend to develop each saurus differently. I assume most saurus will only get to level 3, anything after that is just bonus. Building a saurus to be efficient only after level 3 is too much patience for me.

I have 3 groups of Saurus:
- First group to develop need to give you options on the pitch and therefore they are the 2 break tackle Saurus. Having them early allows you to not get 'locked' and continuously be a threat for your opponent:
Break tackle, Block these are essentially the blitzers of the team,
Blitzaurus 1: Break Tackle, Block - after that it's Tackle, and dodge if I can
Blitzaurus 2: Break Tackle, Juggernaut - after that Wrestle for defence, or for ball carriers.

- second group is LOS/Bashing duty
Bashaurus 1: Block, Mighty Blow - this one develop the fastest, I put pile on after which I only use if I feel safe that I can afford to have him on the floor. Double would be ignored
Bashaurus 2: Block, Stand Firm - Guard after that, grab would come last
Bashaurus 3: Block, Guard - Stand firm after that, grab would come last

- Third 'group' is a unique frenzy Saurus which brings utility and help push the defences in faster.
Frenzaurus: Block, Frenzy - Break Tackle after that

Obviously for lizards it takes ages to get all of them up to level 3 so this is the order of progression:
Blitzaurus (reliable blitzer) > Bashaurus 1 (MB saurus) > Frenzaurus > the rest.

[garion]

you're missing my favourite starting roster for league play:

6 skinks
5 Saurus
4 RR

I did consider putting that roster in but I personally never use it for a few reasons - mainly you need your Saurus and Kroxigor as soon as possible so that you have a better chance of getting mvp on one of your good players. Also being 1 Saurus down from the start is a huge disadavantage. I don't use it and I would never recommend it but I do understand why people use it. Obviously for the extra re-roll. Also If you lose a Saurus and end up down to 4 then you will have an impossible task trying to win the league.

If you ask about the Krox, I induce him as Merc if I play in an established league, and I live without him if I play other TV1000.

i cant say I agree with that really, that only works if you will get enough of an inducement to do this and I wouldnt like relying on that.

[garion]

We also differ in Skill progression as I tend to develop each saurus differently. I assume most saurus will only get to level 3, anything after that is just bonus. Building a saurus to be efficient only after level 3 is too much patience for me.

I don't understand what you mean here? The Saurus you posted are all covered in the playbook, except for the one you posted with juggernaught because I do not see any advantage to a Saurus having that skill. I also do not understand what you mean when you say building a Saurus to be effeicient only level 3 .... All the builds i have posted are effecient after skill 1 which is usually block.

This is the main bulk of the saurus that i develop - Block, Break Tackle/Guard/Mighty Blow, Tackle/Fend/Stand Firm/Grab

The commas seperate the order in which i chose the skills the backslash means chose between those skills as that stage in development.

So on one Saurus i might go for block, break tackle, tackle on another i might go block, guard, stand firm etc... another i might go block, mighty blow, grab etc... as it says in the playbook picking the order of the skills is entirely dependant on the opponents i will be facing in my league. if I face only elves then i pick tackle and grab earlier on. if i am playing only bashy teams then, guard stand firm and break tackle will be needed sooner etc...

[garion]

Well the play book is on its final draft now, and there has been over 100 downloads between the 3 versions. Only 3 of which were me. So come on, feedback please good or bad.

[Greedy_Snitch]

Nice work!

I have one comment: Please write the stats and skills of the starplayers in the header for each, something like this:

Slibli: 7419 Loner, Block, Grab,Guard, Stand Firm -250k

I know you write of all of them in the text, but it would be good to have the summary as well to be able to quickly compare them etc.


BR

Greedy_Snitch

[garion]

Nice work!

I have one comment: Please write the stats and skills of the starplayers in the header for each, something like this:

Slibli: 7419 Loner, Block, Grab,Guard, Stand Firm -250k

I know you write of all of them in the text, but it would be good to have the summary as well to be able to quickly compare them etc.


BR

Greedy_Snitch

I was going to but i was not sure if this would infringe on any GW IP etc... anyone know about this stuff whether this is okay?

[stashman]

Just rename to Saurus Star etc.

[nick_nameless]

RE: The Saurus Blitzer build

Would Juggernaut be a better skill than Pile-on?

Do you think a viable build would be: Mighty Blow, Juggernaut, Break Tackle, Tackle, Wrestle and on doubles: Jump Up?

You don't need Block when you are throwing the blitz with Juggernaut. I know it's a good defensive skill for protecting your Saurus as well so I am not completely discounting it, but this seems like it might be a situationally more effective skill.

As with Grab, Juggernaut is one of the few skills that can combat the Cult of Position mentality. It can open holes where there would otherwise not have been an opportunity to, grab being effective V side step and Juggernaut V Fend, SF and Wrestle. Grab might not be the best skill for a blitzer (IIRC it doesn't while blitzing except to cancel SS, but then that alone might be enough reason to take it), and I don;t mean to imply taking it on a blitzer build here.

Perhaps a build like this would be useful along side a blitzer with your suggested build.

[nick_nameless]

Another thought has occurred to me in reading the defensive set-ups.

You graze over using the Anti Foul set-up with skinks on the front line if your opponent has claw in any kind of abundance. One of the things I have been learning about playing this team (mostly through reading at this point) is that the key to beating the Lizardmen is to kill off the skinks.

These two things do not jive to me. I understand the risk of putting up a Saurus front against a claw heavy team, and I am not saying I have a solution at this point. I am just saying maybe some discussion on how to deal with some claw might help everyone.

Maybe some hybrid formations, or some Saurus builds that help mitigate the appearance of claw. Block, Dodge, Guard , SF on the LOS is certainly one way to mitigate it. Out strength the opponent if you can so that they are throwing blocks uphill if they want to throw them. Use a formation that keeps your strength advantage in play and keeps the opponent from gaining one. Of course this development is a long road away...so maybe skinks on the line is the way to go early. Maybe you have to develop a saurus ball carrier early if you have too much claw in your league. I am a little perplexed by what to do.

[Greyhound]

Hi Garion

I don't understand what you mean here? The Saurus you posted are all covered in the playbook, except for the one you posted with juggernaught because I do not see any advantage to a Saurus having that skill.

The playbook didn't break them in similar groups, I was keen on emphasising that each saurus benefit to be developped differently (after the first skill)

I also do not understand what you mean when you say building a Saurus to be efficient only level 3 .... All the builds i have posted are effecient after skill 1 which is usually block.

That's because I was unclear. Saurus develop so slowly it is pointless to take a skill just because the next one will go well with it. For instance dodge first then break tackle. I also find that unless my saurus has MB he doesn't really grow fast enough to get to level 4. Block only and the random MVP take for ever to get you to 31 SPP anything beyond that and you are already running a lot games. More games means more chance you skull-kill yourself or get mauled by the throw a rock event. You may get to level 4 with a lucky Saurus without MB but it's rare... very rare.

This is why I don't build a saurus to ball handle, but as you said this is a controversial topic.

I did consider putting that roster in but I personally never use it for a few reasons - mainly you need your Saurus and Kroxigor as soon as possible so that you have a better chance of getting mvp on one of your good players. Also being 1 Saurus down from the start is a huge disadavantage. I don't use it and I would never recommend it but I do understand why people use it. Obviously for the extra re-roll. Also If you lose a Saurus and end up down to 4 then you will have an impossible task trying to win the league.

I disagree. I started with this roster and met a CLAW team of chaos dwarf. Obviously I took some hurt, but the MNG Saurus was easily patched with a Krox merc in the next game, the 4 RR are awesome because if you can run with 3 you just use the 4th to reroll the double defender down you got and push your luck further to level up the Saurus.

i cant say I agree with that really, that only works if you will get enough of an inducement to do this and I wouldnt like relying on that.

if you don't get 170k for a game then you are within very close range and TV as your opponent. Since in the first game I run with no bench, I am usually happy to let the natural effectiveness of the team do its job.

[Greyhound]

RE: The Saurus Blitzer build

Would Juggernaut be a better skill than Pile-on?

I play my lizardmen using their speed and Juggernaut is a good skill to unblock the stand firm fest you may encounter. It allows you to push an opponent who would normally not have given way.

Also I favour the sidelines to run my skinks and bash team can prevent me to effectively to that with SF. With Juggernaut I can start playing the pushing game again.

[garion]

You graze over using the Anti Foul set-up with skinks on the front line if your opponent has claw in any kind of abundance. One of the things I have been learning about playing this team (mostly through reading at this point) is that the key to beating the Lizardmen is to kill off the skinks.

These two things do not jive to me. I understand the risk of putting up a Saurus front against a claw heavy team, and I am not saying I have a solution at this point. I am just saying maybe some discussion on how to deal with some claw might help everyone.

Sadly there is not a great deal Lizardmen can do about claw and it is one fo the reasons why they have nerfed by the rule change. Because they so desperately need block, mighty blow, guard, break tackle and tackle asap they cannot afford to get skills like fend as early on in their development as other teams. While this doesnt negate claw. It does negate pile on which obviously gives your opponent a second chance at killing your player. either another armour roll or another go at injury.

The reason I would consider putting skinks on the LOS is because your Saurii are so much more valuable and if you lose a 2 or 3 suarii in the first couple of turns you have as good as lost the game unless your opponent messes up big time, and your Skinks will then be easy to pick off anyway. By the time you are playing Chaos teams with block, Mb, Claw, PO you should have a deep bench anyway. So putting skinks on the LoS although pretty suicidal their survival isnt as important as it is when your team is at an early stage in its development. As long as you have 1 or 2 left for the rest of the half you have enough to pick the ball up. if it becomes available. Really the only way to beat this chaos team is try and injure all the players with claw asap. If it is only the beastmen that developed in this way then with a bit of luck you can injure them with your hard hitting saurus- Block, MB , PO and always use pile on even if you dont break armour the first time. Because the Saurus is safer on the ground against these teams. If you are facing a team where the chaos warriors are developed this way then you are really in trouble. There St and Av is just too high to stand a good chance of breaking their armour with a the coventional block, MB, PO, although it is still a good idea to use PO every time so your saurus is on the floor. The best way to deal with Chaos Warriors like this is to foul them, but you need to make sur eyou can get enough tackle zones round them to make it count. Which isnt alway easy.

Apart from that you just have to try and stay away from them, try and limit them to only one blitz and turn and no blocks. This is why break tackle becomes such an important skill.

There really is very little you can do against them sadly, and although the individual game will be winnable the damage they can cause to your team can be horrendous.


You are right though a section about dealing with Claw would be a good idea. Because Lizardmen really dont have an answer to this problem because they have no reserve Saurus, unlike all the other teams who have good expendable linemen.

[garion]

RE: The Saurus Blitzer build

Would Juggernaut be a better skill than Pile-on?

I play my lizardmen using their speed and Juggernaut is a good skill to unblock the stand firm fest you may encounter. It allows you to push an opponent who would normally not have given way.

Also I favour the sidelines to run my skinks and bash team can prevent me to effectively to that with SF. With Juggernaut I can start playing the pushing game again.

Yes it is an alright Skill, but again you need other skills so much more quickly. Taking Juggernaut instead of block is a big no no, because it doesnt help you defence (one of the lizardmans biggest strength) and it means you cannot cause casulties with block, so there is less chance of gaining SPP with that player. It does help against horrible stand firm players like dwarves have in abundance, but taking break tackle frees you up anyway and is more useful in other aspects of their games. Dont get me wrong i liek the skill i think it can be useful but lizardmen need other skills a lot more.

Do you think a viable build would be: Mighty Blow, Juggernaut, Break Tackle, Tackle, Wrestle and on doubles: Jump Up?

Personally not, for the reasons given above. Mighty BLow as a first skill can be nice on a few Saurii which is covered int he playbook. I dont like Wrestle on a Saurii because you can pressure your opponent in to losing the balll or scoring quickyl without it. Also I prefer having it on my skinks because they are more mobile.

Do not take jump up on a double. to use Jump up and make a block you will have to roll a 3+ with a Saurus to pull it off. If you fail they will end up on the floor for another turn. It is too unreliable. It is also too much of a TV increase for a skill that is not needed.

[garion]

I also do not understand what you mean when you say building a Saurus to be efficient only level 3 .... All the builds i have posted are effecient after skill 1 which is usually block.

That's because I was unclear. Saurus develop so slowly it is pointless to take a skill just because the next one will go well with it. For instance dodge first then break tackle.

I agree, I already said in the playbook that i would never take a double on a first skill and usually dont bother taking it on the second either because there are more vital skills needed. The playbook also says that I personally never bother with dodge at all in my team and rarely take doubles at all on my Saurii.

I also find that unless my saurus has MB he doesn't really grow fast enough to get to level 4. Block only and the random MVP take for ever to get you to 31 SPP

Again this is covered in the playbook, I recommend taking Mighty Blow on the Saurus as a second skill on most builds and I also say that it can be a good idea to take it as a first skill on one or two of your saurii to speed up their development.

You may get to level 4 with a lucky Saurus without MB but it's rare... very rare.
This is why I don't build a saurus to ball handle, but as you said this is a controversial topic.

The Ball handling Saurus doesnt need MB until; later in his development because he will be scoring touchdowns. So will gain SPP from that. So he will develop as fast if not faster than most of your MB Saurus.

As for the roster with only 5 Saurus I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I peronally dont like this roster and to be honest it is not one that I would feel comfortable recommending.

When I play with Lizardmen my Saurus get fouled on average 2 or 3 times a game depending on the opponent. If you start with 5 then you have to put 3 of them on the Los when kicking. Which only leaves 1 standing if your opponents rolls well. Which is 3 free blocks a bliz on one and one of which will be fouled if your opponent is sensible. This is asking for trouble. While you might not have taken any permanent injuried with your Saurus even an mng can be costly. Yes inducing a krox can cover this for the next game but really this is not a risk I would happily take. Too often have I has a saurus Niggled or killed in my first game or two from fouling. Also you need the MVP to land on one of your good players so by having more saurii and maybe a krox too from the start you are increasing that chance. Also having an extra Saurus is better cover for your skinks. I also think 3 re-rolls is enough to get by. Even 2 is enough if you play more cautiously.