All about Dark Elves

AK_Dave · Post by **AK_Dave** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:03 pm

I agree with s031720 on Jugs>MB on a Witch. Crowdpushing is a pretty effective way to outnumber your opponent, except that it can be countered by a savvy opponent and/or a few well-placed skills. Frenzy counters some of this. Jugs counters some of this.

OTOH, Mighty Blow builds SPPs. It isn't dependant on player positioning. You just bash, knock someone down, and get the bonus (if you need it). It works whether you're hitting or being hit. For those reasons, I'd rather have MB on the guys I use to guard the ballcarrier, the guys I use to bash holes for the ballcarrier, and maybe even on the guys who spend most of their time bashing on the LOS. But primarily on the Blitzers, who do the first two jobs for me (block/blitz to make a hole and then take the heat off the ballcarrier). Ideally that gives them TWO chances a turn to benefit from Mighty Blow (when they hit, and when they're hit back).

Witches, on the other hand, shouldn't be getting hit back. They hit, and should afterwards be somewhat screened or at least vulnerable only by a blitz. And if you're blitzing my Witches you're not blitzing my Runners. TD for me!

Its for the passive benefit of MB that I prefer it on a Blitzer over a Witch as a FIRST doubles skill. Second? Abso-freakin-lutely. But I've never been that lucky.

s031720 · Post by **s031720** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:54 pm

Yeah, I would love MB on my blitzers. But not at the cost of enough guard to go around, so my blitzers gets to take one for the team. (meaning sacrificing MB for guard).

But if the consensus is that 2-3 guard is enough to be effective in the DE team, between linemen and runners I should be able to get that. Hopefully and with quite much more luck than you have dave

1 in 20 just dont cut it. And then maybe get MB on my blitzers.

-dreaming-

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:57 pm

I'd take guard on my blitzers, not MB.
I wan't MB on the player who is blitzing, and I blitz with my witch elfs to increase the odds of a knockdown.

Cheers
Martin

s031720 · Post by **s031720** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:03 pm

Apparently its about playstyle here.

I cant play DE without the threat of crowdpushing. Both offense and defense rely on it. It affects my whole gameplay, wouldnt be nearly as effective had I not crowdpushers that could do the job.

MB would be a nice skill too, but it would cost me too much strategically overall.

I cant see how MB benefits the team as a whole more than the occasional CAS. Wich I think is more than equaled by the crowdpushes. I CAN see how it benefits the individual player, but thats just a sacrifice im willing to make. Witch Elves are SPP-hoggers anyway.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:58 pm

Don't underestimate the value of the "occasional Cas." Getting man-down vs. DE sucks a lot worse than it does vs. a slower or less agile team. They're fast enough to keep pace with any two-turner and to threaten the two-turner themselves, on both sides of the ball (unlike, say, 'Zons, who can only do it on O or with fingers crossed). If they get man-up, they can hammer at even a bash team, and they can out-speed anybody.

AK_Dave · Post by **AK_Dave** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:32 pm

Takes 'Zons a fair bit of luck to get a 2-turner even on O. On D? Forget it. But they'll sure as heck make you pay for any early turnovers.

The "occasional CAS" is awesome. Unfortunately, they're too "occasional" for me to count on. MB would help. But crowdpush is more consistent: the guy is guaranteed off the pitch, and a "push" is good enough. MB depends on knocking someone down first, and then improves the odds that the person will either stay down or go off. It generates SPP, but isn't as consistent as sacrificing someone to the crowd.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:15 pm

Hi AK_Dave and s031720,
you sound like crowdsurfing is impossible without juggernaut.
Frenzy is the key component, not juggernaut.

And in my experience, my opponent will try very hard to avoid crowdpush situations - jug er no jug.

Cheers
Martin

s031720 · Post by **s031720** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:33 pm

As Dave said.

Additionally, you dont even have to crowdpush for it to benefitial, sometimes its enough for your opponent to KNOW you have the crowdpushers and that they have no way of protecting themselves, that they will be seriously hampered in their play.

If the opponents opt not to engage you in the widezone, its true that you wont get any crowdpushes, but on the otherhand you will get a safer ride towards the endzone.

The biggest challenge is to force opponents cages out in the widezones where you can wreck some havoc and pick him out, one by one.

When a double push is enough to make you one more on the pitch, I cant see how that can compare with the occasional CAS the MB would do. In SPP yes, in value for the team, no.

One could argue that frenzy is enough, but experience tells me that is not so. Every other semi-developed opponent will have standfirm and/or wrestle, somtimes for the sole purpose of the widezone. (SF that is). Juggernaut will keep her pushing and keep her standing; thus keep her living.

Anyhow, I added it to the text as a topic wich is not agreed upon.

Please share how you use MB for strategical advantage.

s031720 · Post by **s031720** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:36 pm

Plasmoid:

Same thing could be said about CASes without Mighty Block, could it not?

AK_Dave · Post by **AK_Dave** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:47 pm

plasmoid wrote:you sound like crowdsurfing is impossible without juggernaut.

No. That was never suggested. This thread is about the DE Witch, who already has Frenzy.

The comparison between MB and Jugs on a DE Witch assumes:
1) you have a DE Witch
2) you have a doubles skill to pick

If you're interested in improving your odds of having a man advantage on the field, having more active players than the opposing team, then the comparison between MB and Jugs comes out in my opinion heavily in favor of Jugs due to the enhanced ability of the Witch (who already has Frenzy, thus that skill wasn't mentioned) to crowdsurf opposing players.

Not only does Jugs cancel SF and Wrestle, common skills, but it means that she only has a 1/6 chance of knocking herself down. 1D blocks become advantageous against anyone, and 2D-against blocks (esp w/ reroll available) are even reasonable esp if you're content with a push.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:12 pm

See, I'd want my Witch to have Block anyways (for durability), so Juggernaut would only be good against a Wrestler or Stand Firmer, or if a crowd-push is imminent. Not that that's not a good thing, but MB as a first skill means that I can focus on beefing up the other players until she brings herself within spitting distance, and I don't have to try to game to blitz with her every turn (even when she could block) to feel like I'm showing all the leather I paid for.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:00 am

Exactly, All Witch Elves should get Side Step and Block by the 3rd advance (barring miraculous doubles and stat increases.) So the value of Juggernaut is lower.

I'm not saying it's a bad choice, but I don't think it's optimum.

AK_Dave · Post by **AK_Dave** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:01 am

I can see that. Jugs is only useful on a Blitz, while MB is useful on Block or Blitz whether giving or recieving.

I certainly wouldn't develop two sets of Jugs. One Triple-D Witch is enough.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:12 am

I'd rather have a witch (or two) who could mighty blow. Jugs aren't as important.

I actually mean that seriously, too. If I had two Witches who had both rolled doubles, I'd be really glad I gave both MB, as multiple MB on the same team really matters.

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:34 am

If you have one MB and one Juggernaut wich elf, the Juggernauting wich will be the one that blitzes every time.

In my team I have a wich with tackle, mighty blow and thats the one that I almost always blitz with every time I play low AV teams. I don't go on orcs, dwarfs, chaos warriors with that elf, there I just go with someone that can stand up to take some pain next turn if I don't POW my opponent.