LRB 5 Starting League Rosters

[Darkson]

4) Why the heck would you run all Journeymen?

No reason, though we did try it in the Vault days. I was just pointing out that the rules allow you to do it, I wasn't saying it's a good idea.

[MattDakka]

Never said it isn't a house rule, but it is there for a purpose.

Do tell. I haven't figured it out.

Of course, my point is that is a NECESSARY house rule to prevent journeymen abuse in competitive divisions.
A house rule could be for fun but not necessary.

[Darkson]

What abuse?

[MattDakka]

Avoiding to buy players allow some teams (generally the minmaxing ones) to hoard cash that can be later used to keep the team efficient for longer and replace easily the key players, CRP is the BB edition of Stars & Scrubs.
You don't want to waste money on LOS fodder that will probably get hurt the next match.

[mattgslater]

That's only true if you're so poor money matters to your team. But if you're so poor money matters you won't run afoul of the rule. Good team management means you'll eventually bank hundreds of thousands of gold, with absolutely nothing worth doing with it except replacing losses. Bad team management runs you out of money, so the rule doesn't apply. So if it ever impacts anyone, its someone doing something silly. So, once again, why? What form could "abuse" possibly take? Saving up to a higher tolerance, rebuilding at 400k or 500k treasury instead of 300k treasury? Doesn't seem abusive to me.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

I love fumbbl but the JM rule is just stupid. "JM abuse" isn't even a thing. But my question is - why are so many of these starting rosters so bad?

[mattgslater]

'cause this thread is so poorly maintained. It goes back to the beginning of LRB5, and includes a lot of comments from various tabletop communities around the world. This thread is basically a history of LRB5 theorybowl….

[fidius]

I disagree, I think JM-abuse can be a thing. Start with the point of JMs: to help teams that get whacked have competitive games while they recover. Using the rule for advantage beyond that is exploiting the spirit of the freebie.

The most obvious way JMs can be exploited in league settings is where you limit your roster to 9 or 10 players for an upcoming match by not hiring your JMs (Skinks, say), because you want to qualify for Slibli (a stunty loner for an 8th ST4+ player? yes please!) or a Chef or Wiz or some other inducement that you know will really screw him over. And it doesn't cost you anything because you haven't had to fire any players to come down the TV scale.

It's bad form in my books. I'm kind of shocked that's not obvious, particularly with the 3x Gobbos to get the 4th RR trick. If some guy came over to my place for a scheduled match and pulled any of this JM nonsense I'd throw him out, and ideally BEFORE he'd opened any of my beer.

[sann0638]

In terms of finding useful information, this may be one of those times where BBtactics, or the playbooks section of the NAF, with ongoing links, slightly has the edge, in that it's usually not just about starting rosters but also playstyles etc.

[mawph]

I disagree, I think JM-abuse can be a thing. Start with the point of JMs: to help teams that get whacked have competitive games while they recover. Using the rule for advantage beyond that is exploiting the spirit of the freebie.

The most obvious way JMs can be exploited in league settings is where you limit your roster to 9 or 10 players for an upcoming match by not hiring your JMs (Skinks, say), because you want to qualify for Slibli (a stunty loner for an 8th ST4+ player? yes please!) or a Chef or Wiz or some other inducement that you know will really screw him over. And it doesn't cost you anything because you haven't had to fire any players to come down the TV scale.

It's bad form in my books. I'm kind of shocked that's not obvious, particularly with the 3x Gobbos to get the 4th RR trick. If some guy came over to my place for a scheduled match and pulled any of this JM nonsense I'd throw him out, and ideally BEFORE he'd opened any of my beer.

I know in my league where I'm playing with Underworld, I have definitely not hired journeymen goblins in order to be able to get the combination of inducements which will give me a chance to win. If the hire of a goblin JM is not going to allow me to induce a star, its a no brainer to leave the JM aside. I'd even suggest its what the rules are designed to do...
I'd also argue that with the likes of underworld, cash can be an issue. Losing a number of skaven early on leaves you short on cash (I even had a troll die on me...) so you can end up having to save your cash to buy back the non-goblins and leaving JM out while you're doing so helps you stay semi-competitive in the interim.

[dode74]

I'd even suggest its what the rules are designed to do...

I'd agree.

[Darkson]

The rules are specifically designed so that you aren't forced to take JM. You are meant to choose whether to take them in the post-game though, before you know your next opponent (non-scheduled obviously).

[mattgslater]

I disagree, I think JM-abuse can be a thing. Start with the point of JMs: to help teams that get whacked have competitive games while they recover. Using the rule for advantage beyond that is exploiting the spirit of the freebie.

The most obvious way JMs can be exploited in league settings is where you limit your roster to 9 or 10 players for an upcoming match by not hiring your JMs (Skinks, say), because you want to qualify for Slibli (a stunty loner for an 8th ST4+ player? yes please!) or a Chef or Wiz or some other inducement that you know will really screw him over. And it doesn't cost you anything because you haven't had to fire any players to come down the TV scale.

It's bad form in my books. I'm kind of shocked that's not obvious, particularly with the 3x Gobbos to get the 4th RR trick. If some guy came over to my place for a scheduled match and pulled any of this JM nonsense I'd throw him out, and ideally BEFORE he'd opened any of my beer.

The 3x Gobbos trick is probably slightly abusive. But not taking Journeymen is just part of the game. Also, in FUMBBL Ranked and Blackbox it would only come up in tournaments (and it does) because otherwise you usually don't know your next opponent. Generally there's a philosophy that roster maneuvers like scrapping healthy players (and staying at 11) is okay, and so is falling below 11 for a game or so (Journeymen or no), or while you're poor, or after MNGs; the prohibition is on sustaining a roster with 10 or fewer players over the long haul.

I know in my league where I'm playing with Underworld, I have definitely not hired journeymen goblins in order to be able to get the combination of inducements which will give me a chance to win. If the hire of a goblin JM is not going to allow me to induce a star, its a no brainer to leave the JM aside. I'd even suggest its what the rules are designed to do…

Your last sentence is accurate. This would be legal in FUMBBL on a game-by-game basis (that is, you may decline Journeymen in FUMBBL).

I'd also argue that with the likes of underworld, cash can be an issue. Losing a number of skaven early on leaves you short on cash (I even had a troll die on me...) so you can end up having to save your cash to buy back the non-goblins and leaving JM out while you're doing so helps you stay semi-competitive in the interim.

This would also be legal, so long as you're poor enough that the 10k makes a difference. You couldn't fire down below 11 (unless you're cutting injured players), but "I'm saving the money for XXX" is a legitimate defense.

There really is no legitimate purpose for the JM abuse rule. Just a rule saying you can't fire healthies to go below 11 without replacing them, that's all you need. Not even sure about that, but rookie Orcs not needing any more cheese I'm okay with it.

[mattgslater]

K, back on topic. Let's fix these rosters for the new rules!

Here's what I either have done and would do again, or would want to do. Mostly the former. You're on your own for Goblins, Halflings, and Ogres; that's not my bag. Races I play a lot and/or have won rookie tournaments with: Amazons, Chaos Pact, High Elves, Humans (especially), Orcs, Undead, and Underworld. I've also had a little rookie tourney success (3-1 so far) with Slann, Skaven, and Dwarfs, and played a lot of tabletop with Pro Elves and Dark Elves. For the others, take what I post for what it's worth: it's what I've tried or seen. Edit: italics indicate rosters that I think are odd or boutiquey, but that I've either had success with or seen used successfully.

Amazons
Perpetual league: 4 Blitzers, 8 Linewomen, 3 Re-Rolls, Apothecary, 40k Treasury (Catchers and Throwers suck for value)
Scheduled league: 4 Blitzers, Thrower, Catcher, 6 Linewomen, 3 Re-Rolls, Apothecary (… but are nice to have)
Tournament: 4 Blitzers, 2 Catchers, 6 Linewomen, 4 Re-Rolls (if you're getting skills each round)
Inducements: 3 Blitzers, 8-9 Linewomen, 3 Re-Rolls, 130k or 180k Treasury

Chaos
All-Purpose: 4 Warriors, 7 Beastmen, 3 Re-Rolls

Chaos Dwarfs (note: I suck at CDs, IDK why, maybe just sample size)
Scheduled: 2 Bulls, 5 Dwarfs, 4 Hobgoblins, 3 Re-Rolls, 20k Treasury
Perpetual/Tourney: 2 Bull Centaurs, 6 Dwarfs, 4 Hobgoblins, 2 Re-Rolls, 20k Treasury
Fouly: 1 Bull, 6 Dwarfs, 6 Hobgoblins, 3 Re-Rolls

Chaos Pact
Marauders: 12 Marauders, Elf, 4 Re-Rolls, Apothecary
Bigs: Ogre, Troll, Elf, 8 Marauders, 4 Re-Rolls
Midrange: Elf, Troll, Goblin, 9 Marauders, 4 Re-Rolls, Apothecary

Dark Elves
Vanilla: 4 Blitzers, 7 Linemen, 2 Re-Rolls, 10k Treasury
Witch: 3 Blitzers, Witch, 7 Linemen, 2 Re-Rolls
Runner: 4 Blitzers, Runner, 6 Linemen, 2 Re-Rolls
Sturdy: Blitzer, 10 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls, Apothecary

Dwarfs
All-Purpose: 2 Slayers, 2 Blitzers, 2 Runners, 5 Blockers, 3 Re-Rolls

Elves
League: 2 Blitzers, 1 Catcher, 8 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls, Apothecary
Tournament: 2 Blitzers, 2 Catchers, 1 Thrower, 6 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls

Goblins
Full-Go: 2 Trolls, Looney, Fanatic, Bomb, Pogo, 8 Gobbos, 4 Re-Rolls

Halflings
Deeproot: 2 Trees, 10 Flings, 1 Re-Roll, 400k Treasury

High Elves
Scheduled/Perpetual: 2 Blitzers, Catcher, 8 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls
Tournament: 2 Blitzers, 2 Catchers, Thrower, 6 Linemen, 2 Re-Rolls, 10k Treasury
Sturdy: Blitzer, 10 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls, Apothecary
Catchers: 3 Catchers, Thrower, 7 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls

Humans
League/Perpetual: 4 Blitzers, Thrower, Catcher, 6 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls, Apothecary
Tournament: 4 Blitzers, Thrower, Catcher, 6 Linemen, 4 Re-Rolls
Ogre: Ogre, 4 Blitzers, Thrower, Catcher, 4 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls, 10k Treasury
Fouly: 3 Blitzers, Thrower, 8 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls, 110k Treasury
Griff: 11 Linemen, 2 Re-Rolls, 350k Treasury
Wizard: 4 Blitzers, Thrower, 6 Linemen, 2 Re-Rolls, 170k Treasury

Khemri
All-Purpose: 4 Tomb Guardians, 2 Blitz-Ras, 5 Skeletons, 3 Re-Rolls, 10k Treasury

Lizardman
All-Purpose: 6 Sauri, 5 Skinks, 3 Re-Rolls, 40k Treasury
Heavy: Krox, 6 Saurus, 4 Skinks, 2 Re-Rolls, 20k Treasury

Necromantic
Wolfy: 2 Werewolves, 2 Ghouls, 2 Wights, 5 Zombies, 3 Re-Rolls, 30k Treasury
Tough: Werewolf, 2 Flesh Golems, Ghoul, 2 Wights, 5 Zombies, 3 Re-Rolls
Sturdy: 2 Werewolves, Golem, 2 Wights, 6 Zombies, 3 Re-Rolls, 20k Treasury

Norse
League/Perpetual: 2 Ulfs, Runner, Berserker, 9 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls, 20k Treasury
Heavy: Snow Troll, 2 Ulfs, 9 Linos, 3 Re-Rolls, 10k Treasury
Wizard/Boomer: Runner, 11 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls, 180k Treasury

Nurgle
Max-ST: Beast, 4 Warriors, Pestigor, 5 Rotters, 2 Re-Rolls
No-Beast: 4 Warriors, 3 Pestigors, 4 Rotters, 2 Re-Rolls, 20k Treasury
No-Beast 2: 4 Warriors, Pestigor, 6 Rotters, 3 Re-Rolls

Ogres
Heavy: 6 Ogres, 8 Snotlings
Skilly: 5 Ogres, 8 Snotlings, 2 Re-Rolls

Orcs
Heavy: 4 BOBs, 4 Blitzers, 3 Linos, 3 Re-Rolls, 30k Treasury
Extra-Heavy: Troll, 4 Blockers, 4 Blitzers, Thrower, Lineman, 2 Re-Rolls, 10k Treasury
Fouly: 3 Blockers, 4 Blitzers, 5 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls, 10k Treasury
Lucky: 3 Blockers, 4 Blitzers, 4 Linemen, 4 Re-Rolls
Skilly: 4 Blockers, 4 Blitzers, Thrower, 2 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls, 10k Treasury
Fouly-Skilly: 3 Blockers, 4 Blitzers, Thrower, 3 Linemen, Goblin, 3 Re-Rolls
ST3, rookie league: 4 Blitzers, 8 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls, 100k Treasury
ST3, developed league: 4 Blitzers, Thrower, 7 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls, Apothecary, 30k Treasury

Skaven
League 1: 2 Blitzers, 3 Gutter Runners, 7 Line-Rats, 3 Re-Rolls, Apothecary
League 2: 2 Blitzers, 4 Gutter Runners, Thrower, 4 Line-Rats, 3 Re-Rolls, Apothecary
Res Tourney: 2 Blitzers, 4 Gutter Runners, Thrower, 5 Line-Rats, 3 Re-Rolls
Big Guy: Rat Ogre, 2 Blitzers, 3 Gutter Runners, 5 Linos, 3 Re-Rolls

Slann
League/Perpetual: 2 Blitzers, Catcher, 8 Linefrogs, 4 Re-Rolls, 20k Treasury
Short League: 11 Linefrogs, Catcher, 4 Re-Rolls, 10k Treasury
Tourney 1: 12 Linefrogs, Catcher, 4 Re-Rolls
Tourney 2: 10 Linefrogs, Blitzer, Catcher, 4 Re-Rolls, 10k Treasury
Big Guy: Krox, 2 Blitzers, 8 Linos, 3 Re-Rolls, 10k Treasury
Big and Little: Kroxigor, 4 Catcher, 6 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls, 30k Treasury

Undead
All-Purpose: 2 Mummies, 2 Wights, 3 Ghouls, 4 Skels/Zombies, 3 Re-Rolls

Underworld
All-Purpose: Troll, 2 Blitzers, Thrower, 2 Linerats, 7 Goblins, 3 Re-Rolls, Apothecary

Vampire
All-Purpose: 3 Vampires, 9 Thralls, 4 Re-Rolls, 30k Treasury
Risky: 4 Vamps, 8 Thralls, 3 Re-Rolls, 30k Treasury

Wood Elf
No Catcher: 2 Wardancers, 9 Linemen, 2 Re-Rolls, 30k Treasury
Catcher: 2 Wardancers, Catcher, 8 Linemen, 2 Re-Rolls, 10k Treasury
Air-Raid: 2 Wardancers, Thrower, 3 Catchers, 5 Linemen, 1 Re-Roll

[sann0638]

Good stuff matt. But the thread does need an overhaul, with someone prepared to collate the info on p1.