All about Dark Elves

[Coach Grievous]

No. The gain in the inverted ziggurat is:

1) The flanker is protected, and can't be marked.

2) The benefit in blitzing wide is lost to the Side Step winger (you are correct that it is lost also in the Ziggurat), driving the action to the inside. It's not the lost benefit of blitzing wide that the inverted Zig pulls off. It's the added protection on the interior positions. Having the inverted formation means you can maintain your reinforced screens and still protect your "strong" (interior) players on the inside by putting them at the safety position. In a conventional Zig, the midfielder has to defend an "island" and is vulnerable to blitzing. In an inverted Zig, the midfielder isn't actually defending valuable territory: if you want to partition the midfield, you have to get through the safety. If the defender has Side Step on the LOS, you pretty much have to knock guys out if you want to open a hole.

Thanks for the replies and this is straying a bit from Dark Elves specifically, but I certainly find the discussion interesting.

1) All right, .. the flanker can't be directly marked without any Blitz actions, that's not in contention, but as a side-note marking the end player in the regular Zig puts the marker(s) in a nice position for a crowd push.

Marking position are 1 (sub-optimal, but possible) and 2 below

Zig
- - - -|
- - - -|
1 2 x -|
- x - -|

Not necessarily a bad situation to find yourself in on the sideline as long as you have players to detach from the other side. The opponent could mark thus and attack on the other wing of course, but the more agile and mobile team benefits more from this maneuver.

2) So it's more protection against attacks which don't start by blitzing the wings? In these cases, the Zig potentially better protects from assists on Blitzes targeting the midfielder, whereas the Invert gives an easy position for an assist (of course, if the LoS players are moved aside, neither allows any protection from assists).

Zig
- - - -|- - x x x - -|- - - -
- - - -|B - - - - - -|- - - -
- - x -|- x - - - x -|- x - -
- x - -|x - - - - - x|- - x -

Inv
- - - -|- - x x x - -|- - - -
- - - A|B - - - - - -|- - - -
- x - -|x - - - - - x|- - x -
- - x -|- x - - - x -|- x- -

Partitioning the midfield, if this means dividing the team in two, seems as difficult in both formations.

Let's look at the situation with the LoS moved (with one side stepper manning the center, because if this hasn't at least happened the situation is wildly different and the defense has already partly failed) and the midfielder succesfully Blitzed (assuming that player doesn't have Side-Step):

o = Standing players
x = Downed players
B = Blitzer (without the follow-up move)

Zig
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - - -|B - - o x x -|- - - -
- - o -|- - - - - o -|- o - -
- o - -|o x - - - - o|- - o -

Inv
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - - -|B - - o x x -|- - - -
- o - -|- - - - - - o|- - o -
- - o -|x o - - - o -|- o- -

Neither situation allows for the offense to slip by, but neither guarantees that any of the three players exposed won't be marked either.

Below there's the same situation after Blitzes targeting the wingers, instead of the midfielders:

Zig
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - o x x -|- - - -
B - o -|- o - - - o -|- o - -
x - - -|o - - - - - o|- - o -

Inv
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- B - -|- - - o x x -|- - - -
- - - -|o - - - - - o|- - o -
x - o -|- o - - - o -|- o - -

In case of Blitzes targeting the wingers, both formations protect players in the safety position from marking equally well, but allow the two other players to be marked with similar ease for both formations. As a plus, if the Side-Stepper holding the center has been taken down, the Zig requires a longer movement from markers to reach the safety than the Inverted Zig (6 vs 4, counting from behind the LoS).

Apologies for the diagram spam! Hopefully you won't mind, but getting into the nitty-gritty in this topic is difficult otherwise.

[mattgslater]

Hmmm... interesting. We seem to be approaching the debate from different directions. In an inverted wing or a Zig wing, there are the same players in different positions.

Zig : Inverted
Winger : Winger (needs specific skill)
Flanker : Midfielder
Safety : Flanker
Midfielder : Safety

The difference comes in when you consider how these players build for what they do. From a Zig perspective:

Winger: Ward off or thwart wide blitzes, man the outside edge of any subsequent formations, rush the passer.
Flanker: Protect your neighbor, keep the safety clean, rush the passer, form up into the defensive structure (front or coverage).
Safety: Rush, front/cover, blitz, don't get hurt.
Midfielder: Thwart interior blitzes, front/cover, hit back, blitz.

From what position is this easier to manage? Inverted wingers have it harder, but inverted safeties are easier to protect than Zig midfielders, their analog. Inverted flankers definitely stay cleaner than Zig safeties, and inverted midfielders get much more mileage from Guard than do Zig flankers. On the other hand, inverted midfielders pretty much never get to rush if the offense can field anything like a full squad, while Zig flankers may be wide open.

I find if I have an Orc squad with about 10-15 games in, I get good mileage from a half-Zig using Side Step on one Blitzer/winger. Against a ST3 team, I can usually prohibit 1d hits on the Troll from the inverted safety position, channeling the action into the Zig wing and the strong (Zig) midfielder. A Block/SF BOB and a Blitzer/Thrower/Lino with +ST, and voila, nobody gets in without Leap or AG5/Dodge, and the pitch might as well be 14 squares deep instead of 26. I can handle one or two breakaways; what I can't handle is trying to crack a downfield formation while the ballers play keep-away.

[Coach Grievous]

Hmmm... interesting. We seem to be approaching the debate from different directions. In an inverted wing or a Zig wing, there are the same players in different positions.

Zig : Inverted
Winger : Winger (needs specific skill)
Flanker : Midfielder
Safety : Flanker
Midfielder : Safety

The difference comes in when you consider how these players build for what they do. From a Zig perspective:

Winger: Ward off or thwart wide blitzes, man the outside edge of any subsequent formations, rush the passer.
Flanker: Protect your neighbor, keep the safety clean, rush the passer, form up into the defensive structure (front or coverage).
Safety: Rush, front/cover, blitz, don't get hurt.
Midfielder: Thwart interior blitzes, front/cover, hit back, blitz.

From what position is this easier to manage? Inverted wingers have it harder, but inverted safeties are easier to protect than Zig midfielders, their analog. Inverted flankers definitely stay cleaner than Zig safeties, and inverted midfielders get much more mileage from Guard than do Zig flankers. On the other hand, inverted midfielders pretty much never get to rush if the offense can field anything like a full squad, while Zig flankers may be wide open.

Hmm. Seems you're talking more about facilitating player role by positioning than gaining pitch control via formation. Of course, the two are intertwined if not nearly the same, but it's probably just as you say, that we're approaching it from different angles.

The differences in pitch control after the opponent's initial attack seem very minute to me. The differences in setting up the initial attack are slightly bigger in my view. The Zig makes getting assists more difficult, suggesting it might be better against opponent's lacking ST4 or Guarders.

[mattgslater]

I agree with your statement about intertwining. I'm not at all sure where one ends and the other begins.

On the other point, more specifically, the Zig makes it harder to go for the outside at the expense of being easier to hit the inside, while the I-Zig presents the winger as a juicy target in order to shield the "midfielder" in a strong-safety position. On a very young team, it's harder to build to lock out the wings, so the Zig is clearly better. On a developed team, protecting yourself up the gut is the harder skill and the more important one.

[Coach Grievous]

I agree with your statement about intertwining. I'm not at all sure where one ends and the other begins.

On the other point, more specifically, the Zig makes it harder to go for the outside at the expense of being easier to hit the inside, while the I-Zig presents the winger as a juicy target in order to shield the "midfielder" in a strong-safety position. On a very young team, it's harder to build to lock out the wings, so the Zig is clearly better. On a developed team, protecting yourself up the gut is the harder skill and the more important one.

I think that's a fair summation of things, except that I'm not entirely sure the difference is only in the maturity of your team but instead in a dynamic between your team and the opponent's. More specifically, as alluded to by me earlier, the opponent's Strength advantage vs your players and their Guard access. Since mobility (MA/AG) factors in as well, especially in regards to marking it gets more complex as well. I'll need to ruminate a bit on that, though.

[mattgslater]

Slow offenses have to go up the gut, but they don't have to break in quickly. Fast offenses can often make wide plays, at least against slow teams, but without breaking in quickly, they have to make a broad front so they can shift direction. When you don't have good AV, this is sometimes dangerous.

What I've found is that just one ST4 player on a team can usually open a hole on the wing, if the winger has no positioning skills. If the winger has Block, a positioning skill, and ideally Dodge or ST4, it's extremely hard to open a hole on the wing. I've also found that for most teams, it's hard to go up the sideline without telegraphing your strategy, so you have to either be able to bring enough heat up the side (possibly supported by some up-the-middle action with Leap) to form a downfield cage, or support your backfield well enough to prevent partitioning and prevent plays on the ball. The former works nicely for non-Dark elves and for teams that can hammer it home and also zoom deep, like Necromantic (I don't think it's as good a strategy for Necro as a conventional midfield cage with a long breakaway option). The latter is really easy for Skaven, Woodies and High Elves with 11 men (or close to it). Generally, unless you have a short clock, wide plays are dangerous, because being unable to shift in both directions, you have to keep the defense behind you once you deliver the ball, and you have to keep your route open in front of you until you do it.

[danton]

This is an interesting topic and I can see the merits of both the Zig and the Inverted Zig, although both seem to give up the centre rather easily if you don't have a side-stepping nose player on the LOS in order to help clog up the middle. That then leaves the Safety, or midfielder in the second row vulnerable to a blitz.

Also I don't see it as being easy to develop a good nose player like this long-term. The ideal player on a dark elf team would probably be a lineman with Blodge and SS, but in my experience delf linemen rarely get beyond 2 skills. So lets say you give SS as the first skill to your nose player, he is going to be knocked over most of the time having neither Block nor Dodge to protect him, but he can at least fall where you want him to, unless you get a Both Down result which negates his SS. That's all well and good, but he won't last long in that position while getting knocked over repeatedly every time he lines up on the LOS! I suppose, as long as he doesn't actually get killed you could keep using him in that position even after quite a few stat injuries while grooming a replacement, but that begs the question: what do you do when he is injured or KO'd? Do you normally stick to one of the two Zig formations even without your SS nose player available?

I use a formation from time to time with my dark elf teams that involves blocking the centre with a double line and only manning the wings with 1 side-stepper in each wing like this:

- - - -|- - x x x - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- x - -|x - - x - - x|- - x -
- - - -|x - - x - - x|- - - -

Here the wings are side-stepping blodgers (usually blitzers) and the idea is to tempt the opponent to blitz a wing. With a Tackle player he has a decent chance of making a gap, but without a knock down there is no hole to run through without dodging. This has the added benefit of centering most of your players so that they can then reach the side that is penetrated. By forcing his offense to one side you can also make your witches more dangerous due to the proximity of the sideline. With this formation you can 100% protect 3 of your players from getting blitzed, which is great for safe-guarding your witches or other key Av 7 players. A fringe benefit is that the formation doubles as a half-decent anti-one-turn line-up without having to sacrifice anything in terms of positioning.

[mattgslater]

With Dark Elves, it's easy to get Blodge/SS for the wings. Ditto Pro Elves. High Elves have it just a little harder. That formation you've got there would be good against Blodge/SS, though note that you'll be blitzed with Tackle and probably Wrackle.

As far as the kicking side of the LOS goes, Block/Wrestle is the weak sister to Dodge and Side Step. In a diagonal blocking scheme against a rookie line, push often beats down-in-square, because you need the open space to shove thy neighbor in the event the next block gets no pows. Also, the cure for Block on the line is to hit them with rookies, and to use the Block players on the other guys, meaning the offense tends to run at the Block player, yielding even more damage. Dodge is better than SS for preventing injury (Job One), but isn't quite as good at space control, and is easy to negate due to the ubiquity of Tackle. So SS is the best first skill for the first LOS player, with Dodge spam to follow... assuming you're only thinking about LOS play.

[Coach Grievous]

One thing I worry about is the need for more SS on the line in addition to the nose player. He will go down regularly and if he does he won't exert the needed control to stiffle plays down the center, unless the opponent makes critical errors in choosing where push backs and downed players go in addition to the side stepper. But since spamming SS is a valid choice for the team in general, it isn't such a huge issue - just saying that the center won't hold simply because you have a side stepper parked there. However, spamming SS will steal away other useful skills on lineman : basically taking one out of the Blodge equation. A three skill lineman is not impossible of course, but are these really the choice picks for LoS duty?

[mattgslater]

That's what I do with Pro Elves, and they take surprisingly little damage. So I can't imagine that it's not a good idea. One thing that helps when spamming lino skills is forgoing Runners and Assassins. Then you can run five Linos on every play, which is very nice for their development. Kind of a bummer, though, because gimmick skills are fun.

[danton]

Still haven't answered my question though Matt about what you do when your SS nose player is unavailable. Do you still go with the same set-up, or do you change it due to not being able to control the centre to the same extent?

That's what I do with Pro Elves, and they take surprisingly little damage. So I can't imagine that it's not a good idea. One thing that helps when spamming lino skills is forgoing Runners and Assassins. Then you can run five Linos on every play, which is very nice for their development. Kind of a bummer, though, because gimmick skills are fun.

Yeah around 2K TV I find that you normally end up with only 1 runner and no assassins (if you ever took any in the first place). More linemen then get added to absorb the bulk of the heavy hits being dished out by your MB, Tackle, PO laden opponents! Ideally I try and have a 14 man roster around that TV and having 7 linemen also gives you the luxury of considering a dedicated fouler too.

[mattgslater]

Against bash, I tend to go asymmetric, leaving a hole on the wide zone opposite the weak side of the line in exchange for better midfield coverage. That way the liners who do the hitting have to hang out on the strong side of an asymmetric formation where they can't cage up and simultaneously take advantage of the opening, so they either have to cage right into your bulk, ease up on the D-line, or string a very good front along a very wide space. None of those is optimal.

Against speed, I still go sideline to sideline. Drawing them to the inside is actually preferable, because needing to knock down the D-line to make it happen it's not too hard to force them to overcommit at the LOS, making it hard to build good downfield structures around the middle. In that case, not getting beat on the outside is most important, followed by winning on the interior.

90k Dirty Player? Not for me. I'd take a Kicker (Kick-Wrestle-Tackle, Guard on doubles) and a bunch of linemen. Once a guy hits his first skill, he's DL fodder until I have three more of 'em, or at least until he gets an MVP. Then, he's a designated scorer until he's up again.

Heh heh. My High Elves will come out of retirement very soon. They have a ton of guys with two parts of a killer I-Zig combo, all within 5 SPP of improvement: two linos with Dodge and Guard, two with Dodge and SS, and a Blitzer with SS and Frenzy.

[danton]

I will definitely try out SS and Dodge on a nose player if I can, as I normally build my linemen as Wrodgers generally, but am finding more uses for other linemen builds recently. Wrestle and Dauntless is not a bad combo if you have to face a lot of bash teams, although you ideally don't want that player taking free hits on the LOS. Having a 90K dirty player is debatable as you say, but I can see a potential use for one in a big squad.

The asymmetrical formation sounds interesting - can you post a diagram of that? A decent alternative might be 4 columns in the middle, ceding both wide zones, which would let you react faster to the side he choose to go down, as you wouldn't have players far away on the other wing.

[TuernRedvenom]

I find a DP lineman very usefull on any mid-low AV team at high TV. It forces the opposing bash team to play a bit more cautiously about when to use piling on. And I've had some good success by taking out some very dangerous players (Block, Tackle, MB, PO) early with DP against those coaches that didn't protect their PO killers.

[Anglakhel]

I'd love to see some asymmetric formations with Dark Elves in mind.