Looking for good Nurgle resources/advice

[mattgslater]

Frenzy Pests are great! Just not your carrier.

[Smeborg]

I feel that a Frenzy Pestigor - Preferably one with a +Str is a pivotal tool in any pitch control teams arsenal...

I feel that this player type is essential though because it allows a Nurgle team to attack an opposing offence without having to wait for a mistake or dodge in which will leave you out of position defensively...

crimsonsun

Hi crimsonsun - on what teams do you take Frenzy? For example, do you take it on Khemri?

I have only 2 concerns with Frenzy on the Nurgle team:

(1) I worry that the Pest will finish his turn out of position, especially if he starts the turn in contact, and especially on offense. I often find that I have exactly 5 players to form the cage, loss of 1 is potentially catastrophic.

(2) There are many skills competing for a slot on the Pests, I can't find it in me yet to prioritise Frenzy.

But I am very interested to know how you and others get on in practice with the skill.

All the best.

[babass]

i do like having one or 2 frenzy player when i play a slow roster (nurgle, khermi, dwarf,...), to reduice the opportunity of the opponent to use the wings of the field.

[Aliboon]

Often it can be handy to have frenzy on the ball carrier. If in traffic, that extra block can save an awkward dodge roll when you need to break for the endzone, especially handy with horns now that all horn blitzes are @ +1ST even when from a standing start.

It is a two edge sword though - if your cage gets man-marked and you need to clear everyone off then obviously frenzy is a bad idea, but generally I feel that if your cage is under that much pressure then you're in trouble anyway. I think whether frenzy is overall good or overall bad for a ball carrier would depend on the individual setting and the playstyle of the league. If opos have double staggered lines to stop your cage then I would rather have frenzy to break through, if they get up close to take the hits and then hope you skull out before too much damage is taken, then I would rather not.

[swilhelm73]

I would argue that frenzy is generally a negative skill on the ball handler.

Having playing a Necromantic team where the wolves were not primarily ball handlers (both got MB and one had PO too) I could see the difference when a wight or ghoul had the ball and a wolf did.

Specifically one wants to have control over where your player ends his movement, and frenzy takes that away. In return you get a second block if the first doesn't cause a knockover.

This second block can be highly valuable outside of just the question of did you knock down your target as it lets you put your target, and potentially more of his teammates, in a better position for you. One can see how important this is in sideline play, but a good positional coach can do it in the middle of the field as well.

But, here is the thing, if you have the ball, better position almost certainly means away from the ball carrier and frenzy on the ball carrier makes that problematic. Consider the simplest case of if you throw all pushes. For a non-frenzy player that means you are now free, if you blitzed, to advance the ball - a frenzy player, if they second block does not take the target down, will now have to dodge

Of course the more guard and positioning skills (SF, SS, Grab, etc) you have, and the less your opponent has, the less of a drawback frenzy will be.

All that being said I would want one or two frenzy players on any team - ideally on an ST4+, mv6+ player - but I would *not* want it on the ball carrier.

[swilhelm73]

Generally, what should be the second skill you take on a pestigor after block on your first one to reach lvl3?

My team

http://bbm.jcmag.fr/BloodBowlManager.We ... lang=en-US

I play a necro team next week with a couple of ghouls, so tackle would be of some use against them, but my division is mostly Nurgle and Dwarf - Nurglex3, Dwarfx2, Necro, Undead, Underworld.

The other option that is appealing is MB as I currently don't have that skill on a player.

Thoughts?

[Smeborg]

Generally, what should be the second skill you take on a pestigor after block on your first one to reach lvl3?

My team

http://bbm.jcmag.fr/BloodBowlManager.We ... lang=en-US

I play a necro team next week with a couple of ghouls, so tackle would be of some use against them, but my division is mostly Nurgle and Dwarf - Nurglex3, Dwarfx2, Necro, Undead, Underworld.

The other option that is appealing is MB as I currently don't have that skill on a player.

Thoughts?

My first skill on the first Pestigor (assuming no doubles or stat increases) is Sure Hands, followed by Block, Kick-off Return, Extra Arms. He is my Runner.

For the other 3 Pestigors I go: Wrestle, Fend, Tackle. They are my primary ball hunters.

If you are planning to build a slayer team (this is not clear from the roster), then you do indeed need some M-Blow+Claw. If you just go wiith Block and Guard, development will be too slow.

Guard is the correct double on a Rotter, and is excellent (while he lives, of course).

Hope that helps.

[Aliboon]

Specifically one wants to have control over where your player ends his movement, and frenzy takes that away.

I get what you are saying, but frenzy only comes into play if you block -my ball carriers tend to just carry the ball, with the supporting cage players doing the blocking and the blitzing. If my BC needs to actually do a block then I'm in trouble, admittedly I would be in more trouble if he needed to block and he had frenzy too, but that would really be the last resort and at that stage I think I would have to break for the endzone anyway. And this is where I have found frenzy to be useful (at least on ST4 blitzing players - I wouldn't pick it for a ST3 (when blitzing) ball carrier, so that narrows it down to beastmen, bull centaurs and vamps really, barring stat increases)

As for werewolves, I would say that they are too valuable players to be wasting as a ball carrier (and are only ST3)- I'd want to be getting their frenzy and claws into play as often as possible on offence (within reason) as the way I play is that the BC rarely blocks.

[Stig]

Thanks guys, very helpful.

Smeborg and Matt - very convincing with the frenzy / ball carrier advice.

Crimsonsun - the leagues I play in are only around 15 games max (all tabletop) and I reckon they're too short to get grab on a few Warriors as they skill up slowly. I might be wrong. But to achieve that scenario where you were talking about, where you not only pop the cage open, but grab the players and push them around to leave the ball carrier in an unfavourable position, sounds like a proper strategy in itself. Is there a thread here on tff about creating teams like this? I imagine the skills would be something like Block on the NWs, then Guard / Grab? It would be different to Stymie nurgle for sure, where the focus is to give them skills that work better in the opponents turn. Would the defence in this situation have a "key turn" where you think "right, now's the time to turn the screw"?

Matt - interestingly where I play, the "normal" development for most non-AG teams looks a lot like titanomachiae, where Guard and Block are heavily favoured, so that looked quite familiar. I guess the playstyles are similar too, with creative blocking.

Aliboon - the Nurgle offence is quite challenging, as I've been told and am coming to find out, that blitzing with my ball carrier is something I've had to resort to. I'm still new to Nurgle, so it's been rather too often; which is why I was considering frenzy.

Another question - my next game is against a Skaven team with an AG5 GR. All my games so far have had a pretty-successful "wall of nurgle" defence using the Crossbow with the Beast in the middle and Rotters on the LOS. What normally happened was that one player somehow managed to get through, then was successfully held/up blitzed, allowing for a successful column defence by my Nurgle. As per script, this forced the opponent into taking risks. However with an AG5 GR, presumably they'll run through, so you'd adjust your setup accordingly. But how? Is it appropriate to try a column defence against Skaven like this if playing a stymie style? Will it turn into a massive free-for-all?

[Smeborg]

Stig - Skaven vs. Nurgle is one of the most sporting match-ups in BB, so enjoy it. One of the lovely collisions of opposites that the game throws up. In my experience, Nurgle have a slight advantage, but accurate play is required for every turn of the game.

The Beast is ideal for tying up Gutter Runners, 2 at a time if the opportunity presents. The GRs are the key players, if you can reduce their numbers, great. Your armour advantage is big, the longer a drive goes on, the more players the Skaven should lose. Blocking with the Beast can be quite effective against AV7, especially with 3 dice.

You should aim to win by 1-0. 2-0 or 2-1. Use a long grind when you have the ball, be patient.

On defense, I find that trying to defend with everyone behind the ball will not work, the Skaven are too fast. You need to force the play by pushing a Pestigor forwards to where he threatens the ball. This will force the Skaven into something he does not want to do. In turn, this implies more of an area defense, with a network of tackle zones and (especially) Disturbing Presence spread all over the field. Cramp your opponent for space (what one of my opponents calls the "Nurgle press"), make those hand-off and passing plays difficult, wait for one to fail. If your opponent gets lucky and scores, fall back on the 2-1 grind.

Hope that helps.

[babass]

Stig - Skaven vs. Nurgle is one of the most sporting match-ups in BB, so enjoy it. One of the lovely collisions of opposites that the game throws up. In my experience, Nurgle have a slight advantage, but accurate play is required for every turn of the game.

http://naf.talkfantasyfootball.org/races.html

skaven has advantage againt nurgle (skaven has always advantage against slow teams)
nurgle will need a good start (early cas on skaven, or some 1 RR 1 on gutter dodges)

[Aliboon]

Aliboon - the Nurgle offence is quite challenging, as I've been told and am coming to find out, that blitzing with my ball carrier is something I've had to resort to. I'm still new to Nurgle, so it's been rather too often; which is why I was considering frenzy.

If it works for you against your opponents than take it. Block and Sure Hands/Extra Arms (I feel that both on the same player are overkill) are obvious first picks for a ball carrier. But then I think that there are a few skills you could take such as two heads, guard or kick off return to help him being a BC, with a few others which your team might desperately need, like tackle. So I wouldn't personally take frenzy before a 4th or 5th skill (assuming no doubles), in a 15 game league you might not even get there.

[Taketheskull]

Ignore, move to Tourney forum.

[crimsonsun]

I feel that a Frenzy Pestigor - Preferably one with a +Str is a pivotal tool in any pitch control teams arsenal...

I feel that this player type is essential though because it allows a Nurgle team to attack an opposing offence without having to wait for a mistake or dodge in which will leave you out of position defensively...

crimsonsun

Hi crimsonsun - on what teams do you take Frenzy? For example, do you take it on Khemri?

I have only 2 concerns with Frenzy on the Nurgle team:

(1) I worry that the Pest will finish his turn out of position, especially if he starts the turn in contact, and especially on offense. I often find that I have exactly 5 players to form the cage, loss of 1 is potentially catastrophic.

(2) There are many skills competing for a slot on the Pests, I can't find it in me yet to prioritise Frenzy.

But I am very interested to know how you and others get on in practice with the skill.

All the best.

I do take frenzy on Khemri as its a critical tool for offensive control, though I do not take frenzy on players with Str3 or lower (even with horns) because no matter how much guard you have there will be one match in ten in which he becomes a liability.

Where frenzy really comes into its own is for setting up chain pushes so that you can really open the opposing team up, especially if the frenzy player has Juggernaut (add in those times when someone places there Stand Firm str4 player within two squares of the side line because they over looked frenzy+juggs) if you can set up the chains correctly by pushing the supporting defensive players into your thus far activated players.

When defending and you really need to get the ball off the opposition then you can use frenzy to drive right into a cage marking the ball carrier (especially if you have a high str tackle frenzy player) then move up supporting guard players and make any exit dodges for the carrier into tackle zones of unmarked players and you really make life difficult for the opposition. Especially if you you have 2-4 disturbing presence auras in this engagement as it makes a throw nigh on impossible as well meaning your opponent needs some crazy nuffle love or extreme chain pushing or hypnotic gaze to escape. Be careful when committing like this though as high ag leapers will ruin your plans time after time.

5 players in a cage seems weak to me and that your overcommitting elsewhere unless you mean when you first form a cage, I the best defence for Nurgle/Khemri offensives is a cage with abutting screen making sure any weak 'spot' players are doubled up upon with a supporting player. I realise it is always far easier to talk about said cage than create one but it can be made easier by following a few fundamentals; Dont over commit, try to keep at least 5 players out of tackle zones at all times, Go straight up the centre - with low Ag and the pivotal nature of positioning hunting the side lines for surfs is not a luxury you can afford even worse with poor MA a drive down the flanks gives you no plan b if you become unstuck due to players you cant shift or some poor die rolls meaning you will likely have you attack broken down and be dispossessed, Guard and Stand firm are needed on opposing corners making any leaps chain pushing attacks far more difficult to accomplish. Finally and most importantly make your opponent engage you, do not move key parts into tackle zones let them move up and give you free blocks, this will not only greatly increase your odds for causing some casualties but make it far more difficult to set up chain pushes etc.

crimsonsun

[crimsonsun]

Thanks guys, very helpful.

Crimsonsun - the leagues I play in are only around 15 games max (all tabletop) and I reckon they're too short to get grab on a few Warriors as they skill up slowly. I might be wrong. But to achieve that scenario where you were talking about, where you not only pop the cage open, but grab the players and push them around to leave the ball carrier in an unfavourable position, sounds like a proper strategy in itself. Is there a thread here on tff about creating teams like this? I imagine the skills would be something like Block on the NWs, then Guard / Grab? It would be different to Stymie nurgle for sure, where the focus is to give them skills that work better in the opponents turn. Would the defence in this situation have a "key turn" where you think "right, now's the time to turn the screw"?

Another question - my next game is against a Skaven team with an AG5 GR. All my games so far have had a pretty-successful "wall of nurgle" defence using the Crossbow with the Beast in the middle and Rotters on the LOS. What normally happened was that one player somehow managed to get through, then was successfully held/up blitzed, allowing for a successful column defence by my Nurgle. As per script, this forced the opponent into taking risks. However with an AG5 GR, presumably they'll run through, so you'd adjust your setup accordingly. But how? Is it appropriate to try a column defence against Skaven like this if playing a stymie style? Will it turn into a massive free-for-all?

I play in ongoing league format so its obviously a slightly different enviroment though with warriors I alternate guard/block as skill one taking the missing as no.2 and then alternate SF Grab as the third. regarding the Key turn its changes and as often as not there may not be such a turn and it will be better to just obstruct the opposing coach rather than aggressively attack the ball but sometimes you get a few early casualties or your opponent double skulls his first action this is your golden chance thats often too good to refuse.

Against Ag5 gutter runners Nurgle have a few options, 1 Tentacles!! 2 reinforce your column with a couple of floating safeties to add on those extra zones. make sure any attempts to get the ball to said player are in at least 3 Disturbing presence zones. Prehensile tail plus tackle is your friend. My favourite method though and the most effective is send your Tackle, Juggs POMBer (It took me 12 matches to get a Blitz Ra to this stage with a new khemri team) to remove him, if you dont take him off the pitch its time to show him your Dirty Players....