Lizardman Playbook

[Nestyr]

Hi Garion,

I've had a quick look at your play book, and have noticed what I consider to be one glaring omission - feasible scoring with Saurii and the Kroxigor.

Yeah, they have an AG of 1, but they pick up the ball or receive a hand-off on a 5+, which is a fairly decent chance of securing the ball, especially with a re-roll.

This is a very effective way of getting quick SPP's to the players that need them most, which gets them their all important first skill faster, which makes the team more competitive, and so on.

It can work surprisingly well, especially if you decide you will keep your re-roll for that all-important pickup/catch roll.

Also, the all Saurus cage with a Saurus or Kroxigor in the middle is an awesome sight on the pitch (not to mention being very hard to stop!).

It's not as crazy as it sounds, believe me!

Cheers,


Nestyr

[garion]

Hi Garion,

I've had a quick look at your play book, and have noticed what I consider to be one glaring omission - feasible scoring with Saurii and the Kroxigor.

Yeah, they have an AG of 1, but they pick up the ball or receive a hand-off on a 5+, which is a fairly decent chance of securing the ball, especially with a re-roll.

This is a very effective way of getting quick SPP's to the players that need them most, which gets them their all important first skill faster, which makes the team more competitive, and so on.

It can work surprisingly well, especially if you decide you will keep your re-roll for that all-important pickup/catch roll.

Also, the all Saurus cage with a Saurus or Kroxigor in the middle is an awesome sight on the pitch (not to mention being very hard to stop!).

It's not as crazy as it sounds, believe me!

Cheers,


Nestyr

Its already in there, look under the ball carrier saurus section. I agree its not crazy it is a very useful tactic

[nick_nameless]

Do not take jump up on a double. to use Jump up and make a block you will have to roll a 3+ with a Saurus to pull it off. If you fail they will end up on the floor for another turn. It is too unreliable. It is also too much of a TV increase for a skill that is not needed.

Just to clarify...

You need a 3+ to jump up and block, but not to jump up and blitz, yes?

[garion]

Do not take jump up on a double. to use Jump up and make a block you will have to roll a 3+ with a Saurus to pull it off. If you fail they will end up on the floor for another turn. It is too unreliable. It is also too much of a TV increase for a skill that is not needed.

Just to clarify...

You need a 3+ to jump up and block, but not to jump up and blitz, yes?

Yes, blitz means you get to stand up for free. But it still isnt worth the TV increase and there are still far more skills they need before they consider a skill like jump up.

[nick_nameless]

Do not take jump up on a double. to use Jump up and make a block you will have to roll a 3+ with a Saurus to pull it off. If you fail they will end up on the floor for another turn. It is too unreliable. It is also too much of a TV increase for a skill that is not needed.

Just to clarify...

You need a 3+ to jump up and block, but not to jump up and blitz, yes?

Yes, blitz means you get to stand up for free. But it still isnt worth the TV increase and there are still far more skills they need before they consider a skill like jump up.

I understand what you are saying. Ia m not sure I agree on principle, but it's noted.

In my brain, if I am having a Juggernaut, Mighty Blow, Wrestle, Tackle Saurus, Jump Up is a nice synergy with Wrestle for extra range on the turn after a wrestle is used or if he gets knocked down.

We are talking like a 5th skill, so I am not sure how much debate it;s worth, I just happen to like the idea. I am not sure how one determines if a skill is worht the TVR. I have no empirical methodology to do so.

[mattgslater]

Not worth the investment. If you get a double on a Saurus, you have two very good power skills available. Why would you take a combo skill in that case?

I could see Jump Up on a second doubles, if the player already has Dodge and Stand Firm (or on a third double with Dodge and Side Step). But even then, he'd have to have Block, and Jump Up would still have to compete with Diving Tackle. Besides, there are so many other normal skills worth considering, like Guard, Mighty Blow, Tackle, Break Tackle, Frenzy, Grab... I don't think I'd do it even then.

[Carnis]

Its already in there, look under the ball carrier saurus section. I agree its not crazy it is a very useful tactic

I think he meant generalist no skill sauri with no sure hands, no +AG picking ball for some SPPs, which is a big thing for team dev of said team. Not ballcarrying saurus-specialist, maybe I misread you though.

[TuernRedvenom]

Do not take jump up on a double. to use Jump up and make a block you will have to roll a 3+ with a Saurus to pull it off. If you fail they will end up on the floor for another turn. It is too unreliable. It is also too much of a TV increase for a skill that is not needed.

Just to clarify...

You need a 3+ to jump up and block, but not to jump up and blitz, yes?

Yes, blitz means you get to stand up for free. But it still isnt worth the TV increase and there are still far more skills they need before they consider a skill like jump up.

Isn't AG 1, jump up a 4+?
AG 3+ = 2+
Ag2 = 3+
AG1 = 4+

[garion]

Isn't AG 1, jump up a 4+?

Yup sorry thats right

I think he meant generalist no skill sauri with no sure hands, no +AG picking ball for some SPPs, which is a big thing for team dev of said team. Not ballcarrying saurus-specialist, maybe I misread you though.

Yup this is going to be inluded in the next draft. Should be a while before that is done though because I am writting a lot about playing against claw heavy teams too

[RogueThirteen]

Thanks for the playbook - it's a very valuable resource.

I've been coaching a Lizard team in a table-top weekly league and experimenting with them in the Cyanide game, and I think I have a very different general approach to the them. I don't think Lizards should be playing the 2-1 grind at all, except against Elves and the other teams with a strong passing game developed and against whom you can reasonably stall while protecting your skinks.

In my opinion, they are one of the best teams at scoring on the defense, and against other less 'graceful' and more bashy teams you should be trying to win the game at 2-0 or 3-0 if things go reasonably well (though a 4-0 win is pretty attainable for Lizards as well when playing against a slow, bashy team). The reason is that you cannot afford to get into a grind with these teams, as they will win the attrition war by focusing on your skinks. You can't protect the skinks AND maintain the blocking game against Choas, Orc, Ogre, Khemri, Undead, and the like. They can afford to pull their STR3 decently armored guys into the fray for assists, chain-blocks, etc. while you'll be forced to pull skinks in for assists which will get them beaten out of the game. So you'll either start losing skinks or you're Saurus screen will crumble and your skinks are then exposed. In the blocking game, Lizardmen are always outnumbered because the Skinks can't really afford to get too involved except when making relatively safe assists that won't leave them in too much danger (that being said, to win games you'll need to make such assists and you might even occasionally have to dodge a stunty skink into a spot where it can cancel 2-3 assists so your Saurus can manage a crucial 2D block).

So, as Lizards playing against the bashier teams, I think you should score as often as possible and play aggressively to try and create opportunities for defensive TDs. Kick can become a vital skill for a Skink to take on doubles (never waste a Saurus level-up on it), as you can kick deep into a corner. Then, slow bashy opponents either pull a significant chunk of their team back to form a cage (potentially slowing them down enough to not be able to score while leaving the rest of their unassisted team near the LoS to get over powered by the Saurus) OR they risk failing the pick-up and leaving the ball dangerously unprotected. If they do the latter, flood their backfield with your skinks. If they failed the pick-up, try and grab it yourself or at least put TZs on it to make picking it up even harder for them. If they did pick it up, get some TZs on or in the way of the ball-carrier. Meanwhile, try and bring one or two Sauri deep into their half to be able to threaten the carrier in future turns. Once you've done this, you've got a good psychological edge on your opponent, as all that aggressive pressure is hard to play against since now any turnovers early in their turn will likely result in a defensive TD for you. This means they can only afford to play the safest of their options, which will limit their choices and flexibility a lot. Now, making that 3+ dodge with their Chaos Warrior might not seem justifiable... And this usually results in them over-committing their team into defending the ball carrier deep in their own half, and this can put them well out of position.

Nonetheless, my cardinal rule #1 of playing Lizardmen is to always have one or two skinks behind the opponent's cage. Whenever a saurus manages to jar the ball loose, try and have a stunty skink grab it, make the hand-off to one of the two lurking skinks, and run it in for the TD.

[nick_nameless]

Thanks for the playbook - it's a very valuable resource.

I've been coaching a Lizard team in a table-top weekly league and experimenting with them in the Cyanide game, and I think I have a very different general approach to the them. I don't think Lizards should be playing the 2-1 grind at all, except against Elves and the other teams with a strong passing game developed and against whom you can reasonably stall while protecting your skinks.

In my opinion, they are one of the best teams at scoring on the defense, and against other less 'graceful' and more bashy teams you should be trying to win the game at 2-0 or 3-0 if things go reasonably well (though a 4-0 win is pretty attainable for Lizards as well when playing against a slow, bashy team). The reason is that you cannot afford to get into a grind with these teams, as they will win the attrition war by focusing on your skinks. You can't protect the skinks AND maintain the blocking game against Choas, Orc, Ogre, Khemri, Undead, and the like. They can afford to pull their STR3 decently armored guys into the fray for assists, chain-blocks, etc. while you'll be forced to pull skinks in for assists which will get them beaten out of the game. So you'll either start losing skinks or you're Saurus screen will crumble and your skinks are then exposed. In the blocking game, Lizardmen are always outnumbered because the Skinks can't really afford to get too involved except when making relatively safe assists that won't leave them in too much danger (that being said, to win games you'll need to make such assists and you might even occasionally have to dodge a stunty skink into a spot where it can cancel 2-3 assists so your Saurus can manage a crucial 2D block).

So, as Lizards playing against the bashier teams, I think you should score as often as possible and play aggressively to try and create opportunities for defensive TDs. Kick can become a vital skill for a Skink to take on doubles (never waste a Saurus level-up on it), as you can kick deep into a corner. Then, slow bashy opponents either pull a significant chunk of their team back to form a cage (potentially slowing them down enough to not be able to score while leaving the rest of their unassisted team near the LoS to get over powered by the Saurus) OR they risk failing the pick-up and leaving the ball dangerously unprotected. If they do the latter, flood their backfield with your skinks. If they failed the pick-up, try and grab it yourself or at least put TZs on it to make picking it up even harder for them. If they did pick it up, get some TZs on or in the way of the ball-carrier. Meanwhile, try and bring one or two Sauri deep into their half to be able to threaten the carrier in future turns. Once you've done this, you've got a good psychological edge on your opponent, as all that aggressive pressure is hard to play against since now any turnovers early in their turn will likely result in a defensive TD for you. This means they can only afford to play the safest of their options, which will limit their choices and flexibility a lot. Now, making that 3+ dodge with their Chaos Warrior might not seem justifiable... And this usually results in them over-committing their team into defending the ball carrier deep in their own half, and this can put them well out of position.

Nonetheless, my cardinal rule #1 of playing Lizardmen is to always have one or two skinks behind the opponent's cage. Whenever a saurus manages to jar the ball loose, try and have a stunty skink grab it, make the hand-off to one of the two lurking skinks, and run it in for the TD.

All good points! It seems to me that, especially once the team begins to develop a little bit, as long as you can get the ball into a cage 10 squares or less from your opponent's endzone. that this team is as capable of making a 2TTD as many others.

I wonder if the problem, though, is that if you get nuffled and your opponent gets the ball you will have a heck of a hard time getting back into position on defense to stop the score. Especially early in Lizardmen's development it seems like you need to be a bit methodical to how you run your game

[mattgslater]

If you can get the ball away early with any fast team, you should be able and willing to score and repeat. After all, even if you give up a TD, it's at least as good as stalling the opponent out and going into halftime 0-0, which isn't bad. And if you do it again, you can probably view the game as in-the-bag, and can forget about tempo (don't play soft; just don't be afraid of losing on tempo). Offense is different: if you're tied (or trailing by 1 and willing to play for the draw or OT), you should stall until you think your opponent can't answer you; if you're trailing by more than one, you should aim for the quick score, and if you're in the lead, you should aim for the quick score unless the enemy dugout or the personnel matchup and field position tells you otherwise. I don't have a lot of experience with Lizardmen, but in the three games I've played with them, I've picked up two 2-3 turn defensive scores (2-1-0 WTL, 7-3 TDs) and one more that took awhile to materialize (ran it in on T8). And that's with rookie Lizards against other rookie teams, and with only one failed pickup/caging attempt. No, it's not a sample, but it's proof that it's possible.

[RogueThirteen]

Two-Turn TDs (TTTDs) are pretty easy with the Lizards. If you're playing against relatively weak teams whom BOTH need to get at least an assist or two to take on your Sauri AND doesn't have the Tackle Skill, then a reasonable offensive tactic is to to spread skink hand-off receivers out in the opponent's half.

This depends where the kick goes, but if a skink can grab it and get into a Saurus cage near the center of the pitch, I'd spread the other 3-4 skinks out into the opponent's half where they can all score. Your opponent has two options:

(1) Commit at least two players to mark each skink (this makes a hand-off attempt need a 5 and will probably force the ball-carrier to make a dodge roll in)
or
(2) Try to encapsulate the cage so that the skink with the ball can't get out.

If they do (1), they can only blitz one of the skinks and the rest can just dodge a square away on their next turn (standard elf/human receiver tactics). This also means they're only committing about 5 guys to stop your 6 Saurus, 1 Krox, and 1 Skink cage. So the cage can more easily advance until the ball-carrier can slip out and run it in himself. Plus, grinding your cage forward against weaker teams is likely to start getting you a numbers advantage and some CAS exp. If they get greedy and try to only commit a single player to mark one of the skinks, try to blitz him off with a Saurus, if possible. Even if you can't get a Saurus there, the hand-off only needs a 4, and with a reroll that's a 75% chance of success followed by a 89% chance that the dodge away for the TD run-in will work. Pretty decent odds if you're in a hurry.

If they do (2), you'll have to hope that your greater strength will hold and your cage can push forward. You can bring the skink receivers back for assists or as roadblocks to cut off their various flanks assaulting your cage. Alternatively, you can try and punch a hole in one of the flanks, get the stunty skink out and through, and make the hand-off for the TD (this is pretty reliable, and I believe you've got to take these kinds of risks to win with an Agility team, which ultimately I think the Lizardmen are closer to compared to the Bashy end of the spectrum). Your final option is to bring all the skink receivers near one of the other ones. Then you can try and a pass with the skink in the cage if you're really desperate. Stunty means your passing is at -1, and you're probably doing at least a long pass, so that's another -1. That means you need a 4+ to not fumble, which is again a 75% of not fumbling with a reroll handy. Even if the ball scatters a bit, you might get lucky and have a skink catch it (and ideally the one who hasn't activated, so he can then run it in), or hopefully you've been able to screen or tie-up most of his defense so they won't be able to quickly recover it without risking some dodges. Additionally, the other skinks you've pulled toward the other, non-activated intended receiver should be placed a bit in front to ask as additional roadblocks between the opponent and where the ball hopefully ends up.


That's why I like Lizards so much (in addition to the fact that everyone loves dinosaurs). They are really flexible, they force the opposition into difficult and unfamiliar decisions, and I think most coaches try to play against them as if they were a bashy grind team, which ends up letting the skinks score pretty easily. Alternatively, if a coach does try to play against them as if they are a fast agile team by spreading out, then that means your Saurus cage can grind more effectively up field.

Now, I will say that there are some disclaimers with this overall team philosophy. First, it means I'm scoring quickly and often with my skinks, which means that my Sauri and Krox haven't gotten a lot of CAS experience (in four games of their TT league so far, I've only caused 2 CAS, and one of these came from a "Both Down" result that also caused my Krox to lose -1MA and miss the next game). I have, however, still managed to level up two Sauri (one with a CAS and one with a lucky TD). Once the MVP falls onto a Saurus, I make their blocks a priority and try to put them on the weakest targets the opponent has.

Though, very slowly leveling Sauri aside, the quick-scoring and aggressive defense tactics has put them at 3-1, with their only loss coming in a mandatory OT where the opponent received the ball and had a numbers advantage (I would have much preferred to just take the tie). They've scored 7 TDs with only 3 Against, and in one of those games the opponent conceded at halftime before I could put more TDs on the board.

So, some more tactical options for Lizard coaches. They are a surprisingly flexible team, despite their apparent pigeon-holed dichotomous players.

[RogueThirteen]

An additional note about Journeymen:

Don't be afraid of taking journeymen skinks, as they are some of the best journeymen around. Not having cheap, expendable linemen sucks, but it also means we get ace journeymen. Loner is not a huge disadvantage if you try to avoid handing-off to a JM or picking up the ball with them (all things you should try to avoid doing with your JM anyways, as the possible SPPs are more valuable on permanent members).

Buy a Kroxigor / 6th Saurus / 4 Rerolls before replacing any lost skinks or going beyond an 11-player roster. In my table-top league so far, I've played 5 games and three of those games have been with two JM skinks, and they've performed admirably.

Additionally, JM skinks are kind of nice because you can take risks with them or put them in dangerous situations without being too worried about them suffering an injury or death. Additionally, if they do skill up (I had one score a TD and get MVP in the same game), you get to level them up before you have to decide to hire them (though their cost will rise accordingly). This way, you can even 'try out' JM skinks and wait to hire one until it gets a stat increase or a doubles roll.

[MKL]

Hi Roguethirteen

Your approach to the Lizards match my own experiences... as an opponent.
A friend of mine favor the same style: fast td followed by an extremely aggressive defense. Rabid, gung-ho skink actions, usually kicking short to put maximum pressure on the ball.

(...)
You can't protect the skinks AND maintain the blocking game against Choas, Orc, Ogre, Khemri, Undead, and the like.
(...)
So, as Lizards playing against the bashier teams, I think you should score as often as possible and play aggressively to try and create opportunities for defensive TDs. Kick can become a vital skill for a Skink to take on doubles (never waste a Saurus level-up on it), as you can kick deep into a corner. Then, slow bashy opponents either pull a significant chunk of their team back to form a cage (potentially slowing them down enough to not be able to score while leaving the rest of their unassisted team near the LoS to get over powered by the Saurus) OR they risk failing the pick-up and leaving the ball dangerously unprotected.

If only, he's more extreme than you: he take Kick on the first Saurus who skill up and Sure Hands on the first skink who got a double. His cardinal rule is “the best defense is to pressure the ball”. It's almost skaven-like in its single-mindedness

(...) all that aggressive pressure is hard to play against since now any turnovers early in their turn will likely result in a defensive TD for you. This means they can only afford to play the safest of their options, which will limit their choices and flexibility a lot. Now, making that 3+ dodge with their Chaos Warrior might not seem justifiable... And this usually results in them over-committing their team into defending the ball carrier deep in their own half, and this can put them well out of position.

A fundamental skill in his team is Break Tackle: the 3rd and 5th Saurus usually got it as first skill. He use the BT Sauri, coupled by 1-2 SS Skinks and a (Stand Firm) Kroxigor to stymie any advance. Many times the opponent is tempted to try wrong, fast actions to break the stalemate.
He play an effective “control game” augmented by aggressive stunty ballhawks*.

*small but vicious dogs anyone?