Cyanide releases their Khorne Roster

[mattgslater]

If I played this roster, I'd take 8 Pit Fighters, 3 Bloodletters, and 4 Re-Rolls. Then, after I got a couple Block Pit Fighters i'd take a Leader and sack a RR. Then after several more Block or Wrestle players I'd sack another RR. My purchases will be an Apothecary, a Bloodletter, and, uh, nothing. Maybe I'd replace a dead Pit Fighter with a Herald. One.

Guard is the only doubles skill for Pit Fighters, and the #1 selection for all four Bloodletters. No ball-handlers; anyone can do the job once I've gotten 5-6 surfs.

[Smeborg]

I've just realised that this team brings the hard core BB coach's dream: 11 players with Frenzy and no Block .

[swilhelm73]

Guard is the only doubles skill for Pit Fighters, and the #1 selection for all four Bloodletters. No ball-handlers; anyone can do the job once I've gotten 5-6 surfs.

How does that work against a heavy SF/SS team, or one that refuses to be drawn into a sideline fight?

[Coach Grievous]

Very well done in making Khorne interesting, indeed! Not "just another Chaos team", either. On first look, it did look like Norse, but on second look I think it's quite different in flavor. First of all, there's just four AV7 guys.

However, my immediate thought is that this is actually pretty powerful in the hands of a good blocking/positioning coach. The amount of crowd pushes this team can get when played well... with enough Guard and a few Grab to speed things along.

I don't see Wild Animal as much of a problem in this team. It's the best neg-skill to have here. Tentacles and/or Guard will also help the rest of the team do their stuff... ie. crowd-surf. Also, with so much Frenzy, when you don't feel like blitzing with the Bloodthirster, feeding the damned thing mooks to Block is simple.

[Juriel]

I think there's a strong line of Norse running through them - if either doesn't get early surfs/CASes done, they will run out of gas and get out-gunned and out-powered. They're both glass cannons, with an eye heavily towards surfing, their exact approach to it just differs. And, similarly to Norse, the team's only access to Claw is their Wild Animal big guy - only he's even more critical for Khorne because he is the only one with ST above 3.

Note: I never did say they play just like Norse. Norse are just the closest spiritual packmate they have, and is a handy shorthand to dispel people's illusions of being able to play them in the regular, bashy, Chaos fashion.

[Smeborg]

Juriel - I agree.

Earlier this evening, I played my first ever league game (tabletop) with the new Khorne roster. It happened by accident, I was expecting a training game with a new coach, she turned up late and unprepared, so instead I played a friendly league game against High Elves in our open IPL (Interminable Perpetual League). My opponent had a rookie team too, using HEs for the first time, giving me an advantage (he is an experienced Skaven and Lizzie coach). Took the field with 2 Bloodletters pretending to be Heralds (I have 2 painted models from Gold/4th Ed. days), 3 Beastmen (for Bloodlletters, at least they have Horns) and 6 Human Lineman for Fighters. Christened my team "Crowdsurfers' Paradise" and took the roster I suggested earlier in this thread:

2 Heralds, 3 Bloodletters, 6 Fighters, 3 RR

Result: 1-1 draw (CAS: 1-1), a fair result as the game went. No-one skilled up, but got just enough money for an Apoth. 10 SPPs (TD, CAS, MVP).

I won the kick, gathered the ball, and copped 1 MNG, 1 KO and several stuns on the first drive, only staying in the game by surfing a couple of players. Switched sideline and moved the cage downfield until forced to score with the original runner on turn 6. Then managed to shut out the HEs (they had 3 turns to score, but were out of RRs, and failed). Finished the half with an unused RR. Both other RRs were used on pure double skulls. My opponent was very wary of going anywhere near the sidelines, especially after I surfed the 2 Elves (one on each side IIRC). This made advancing the ball much easier than it would otherwise have been.

Played most of the game at least 1 man down on the HEs, not nice that.

2nd half - HEs scored in 3 turns in a wild first drive (we both suffered turnovers on our most critical turns). Then I had to try and score, but struggled, being down on numbers. Eventually on turn 6, I was forced to make a B/S pass (you are more polite on the other side of the pond and call it a punt) to the corner. This worked, a scramble ensued, with no TD scored by either side. 3 re-rolls blown in the first 3 turns this time on failed first blocks (double both down or skull/both down). My opponent blew his 2 RR in 2 turns.

I did not suffer a single turnover due to Frenzy in the match. The Fighters have to be used quietly. The Bloodletters are very important, as they are the only players who can block safely on the LoS, which is not a very friendly place for Khorne. The rookie team needs to take its blitz as early as reasonably possible in the turn, as it is much safer than blocking. The team badly needs a passing option, as caging is quite weak, and the team can struggle to maintain parity of numbers (this will get better with a bench). So I revise my opinion about passing skills, and will develop a Fighter as a Thrower (after a Leader). This will leave all the Bloodletters to take Blodge/Guard. The Bloodletters are the natural cage-corners, as only they can block without having to follow up. They will also make the natural receivers when they get Dodge. This all means that the Bloodletters are the over-worked players of the team. Blitzed with them sometimes, too.

I found myself using Frenzy as a mobility and positioning skill, for example to advance players to places from where they could threaten to score, or (more importantly) to push potential receivers back out of scoring range on defense. The defense seemed quite resourceful, better than I was expecting, it got me the draw.

Alfhough my roster proved its worth, I am very happy with it now that I have an apoth, the other competing roster is not without merit, because of the importance of the non-Frenzy Bloodletters, and greater resilience:

2 Heralds, 4 Bloodletters, 5 Fighters, 2 RR, Apoth

This roster might work better against bash teams, or when entering a league late. The rookie Bloodletters were frequent targets of opportunity for my opponent. Khorne is definitely not a traditional bash team, but they own not only the sidelines, but the wide zones as well. This brings a surprisingly big positional advantage on both offense and defense, compensating for the obvious deficiencies in the starting roster. Like Amazons, they seem too slow (all MA6), so +MA would appear to be very useful (on the Heralds, Bloodletters and possibly the Thrower). Will probably develop into a sort of passing team, I felt at all times that the cage was weak and ripe for marking or sacking, so I was always looking to push a Herald and Bloodletter into receiver positions. The team will likely skill up slower than most teams (few CAS and few PCs), but in part compensation there will be opportunities to spread the TDs around (all AG3/MA6). Dodge looks like a potentially good doubles skill for the Heralds, there are only 2 of them and they get tied up. +AG would be gold on anybody.

A most enjoyable and refreshing game for both coaches, kept us on our toes. Hope that helps, and all the best.

[GalakStarscraper]

Thanks Smeborg.

That is a really well written write-up.

Your comments on care with playing matches up with many of the playtester comments I saw during the Cyanide testing. A challenging team similar in skill requirement to the other Tier 1.5 teams.

Tom

[mattgslater]

Mass Frenzy is very good, yes. But without Block, Guard, or true ST4, it's kind of scary, no? I like having a lot of Frenzy. Sometimes I'll load a Norse team up with Frenzy on like 7 or 8 guys, drives people crazy. Please explain to me how this roster is better at the only thing it's good at?

[GalakStarscraper]

Please explain to me how this roster is better at the only thing it's good at?

It offers better team value for trying to maximize Frenzy use and the player stats.

Two quick examples:

Try to get the Lineman to 6/3/3/8 Block, Frenzy
Norse Lineman is 100k.
For the same 100k, the Khorne Pitfighter has the above AND one normal skill.

Another example ... let's say Horns is an General skill just to do this:
Get to 6/3/3/8 Block, Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut, Jump Up
Norse Berserker is 180k.
For the same 180k, the Khorne Herald has the above AND two normal skills

[Smeborg]

Please explain to me how this roster is better at the only thing it's good at?

I won't go into the details of pricing, which Galak has done, except to say that each of the player-types seems decent enough value to me in practical play. My first impression is that if the roster were less lopsided in style, it might well be "broken".

The ability of this roster to crowdsurf is way, way better than the other Frenzy teams. The combination of Frenzy/Horns/Juggernaut means you can push opposing players 2 squares almost at will. When I began my match, my opponent was wary of this combination, and stayed 2 squares away from the sideline. By the end of the first drive he was plain scared and staying 3 or more squares from the sideline, which he did for the rest of the match (unless out of range). He did this because on the 2 occasions that he strayed, he got surfed. This crowdsurfing ability, already outstanding, can only get better with development, with plentiful Guard, some Grab (on the Bloodletters), and (say) Block/Dauntless on the Fighters. Grab, although probably only a late or middle skill on this team, I expect to be outstanding, as it will enable the Bloodletters to "herd" any opponent to where the team needs him to be. I suspect opposing teams will face a typical dilemma against Khorne: sacrifice a player to the crowd, or concede an immediate TD. This is just as well for Khorne, as they cannot hold the ball for long. Opponents will face another typical dilemma: blitz to attack the ball or blitz to prevent a player being surfed next turn. These are entertaining issues for both players in practical play, and make for an open and exciting style of game.

Frenzy/Horns/Juggernaut is a near-perfect combination on a Strip Ball player, if you want to go that way (I have not done so, but have explored the issue before, having seriously considered the combination on Pestigors). No doubt there are other combinations for this team, I'm only scratching the surface for now.

Hope that helps.

[Smeborg]

Thanks Smeborg.

That is a really well written write-up.

Your comments on care with playing matches up with many of the playtester comments I saw during the Cyanide testing. A challenging team similar in skill requirement to the other Tier 1.5 teams.

Tom

Thanks for your kind words, Tom.

I see the team as in a broadly similar category of "challenge" to Slann, Chaos Pact, Vampires and Nurgle. All 4 of these teams have won serious leagues and/or tournaments in my neck of the woods (Australia/NZ) in the hands of good coaches (not necessarily coaches of long standing). On the other hand, rookie or less thoughtful coaches may struggle to master any of these teams.

When a new team comes out, I worry less about tier 1, tier 1.5, tier 2 etc,. and more about whether the team might be "broken" in the hands of a good coach. The Khorne team does not appear to be such, at least at starting roster level, and is certainly a good challenge. I like the variety in performance and difficulty of the different races in BB, I think it's a major part of the glue holding our great hobby together. If the races were of equivalent performance and difficulty, rookie coaches would leave the hobby because they were always being beaten, and experienced coaches would leave because they were always winning!

By the way, I applaud the design decisions to have no ST4, no mutation access, no starting Block, MA6 across the board, and "handicapped" rookie Linos. Without these strict parameters, I suspect the team might have been too powerful.

All the best.

[Hitonagashi]

Alternate roster for consideration:

1 Bloodthirster
4x Bloodletters
6x Pit Fighter
2 RR
1k TV.

Tabletop skill wise, in a 6 skill setup, 1 leader reroll on a pit fighter, Dodge on all 4 Bloodletters, and Mighty Blow on the Bloodthirster.

Your Bloodthirster is obviously your primary blitzer, until he can tie up multiple players (being the only model to be able to get claw/mb + non-turnoverinducing blitzes in tabletop play). Dodge offers some serious protection for the Bloodletters, especially as they won't need to get tied up in tacklezones. In addition, you will *need* assists. Dodge on the Letters means that they can dodge to provide frenzy assists when absolutely necessary.

[Fassbinder75]

I like the variety in performance and difficulty of the different races in BB, I think it's a major part of the glue holding our great hobby together. If the races were of equivalent performance and difficulty, rookie coaches would leave the hobby because they were always being beaten, and experienced coaches would leave because they were always winning!

I'd never really considered that before Smeborg, great point. All hail the mighty Turnover!

[Smeborg]

A few more thoughts on development.

Unusually, Guard may not be the best doubles skill on Linos, Dodge may be better. Dodge may also be the best doubles skill on Heralds. With 6 or 7 other players with ST access, I'm unsure of the value of Guard on the Linos. But on the other hand, lots of Dodge would protect the team well, and would give a way to reduce risk in your own turn (it would not be uncommon for an 8/9 dodge chance to be quite a bit safer than a block).

Tackle is a big headache for the team, I see few, if any, players taking it before 4th or even 5th skill. So I have to contemplate the admittedly crazy idea of doing without Tackle on this team, relying on Frenzy instead. In defense of this idea, m'lud, this is not a "normal" team.

Pit Fighter development is the main conundrum of the team, because of the implied need for specialisation (at least 5: Leader, Kicker, Fouler, Thrower, Runner). Even if you drop or combine some of these specialities, it's going to be a long time before you develop a genuine Lino. So I am tending to a more generalised approach: give the Fighters Block first (that partly solves one of the main starting problems of the team), and wait for a doubles (Dodge) or stat increase on one of them (even the humble +MA is quite good) and make that player into the Runner/Thrower. There is also a chance that a Bloodletter Daemon will become a Runner (e.g. if you get a stat increase such as +1AG).

Hard work, this team development plan. All the best.

[nufflehatesme]

i like the idea of lots of wrestle on the pitfighters. helps in avoiding unwanted followups
i also see the bloodthirster as essential. when to get him i am not so sure, but i would try to fit him in the starting line up.
jump up as 1st double over block on him, and you will have a killing machine