Cyanide releases their Khorne Roster

[Juriel]

I'm personally particular to...

7 Pit Fighters: 420k
1 Bloodletter: 80k
2 Heralds: 180k
1 Bloodthirster: 180k
2rr: 140k

I view the big guy as essential for the otherwise ST3 team, and he needs to get to MB (then Guard) as soon as possible.
Heralds are the ones with AV8 and Strength access, so picking them up early allows them to get to that Guard quickly.
This minimizes the starting AV7 on the pitch.

A Pit Fighter will be carrying the ball, to get to Leader as soon as possible.
Heralds will act as support pieces, with Guard as first pick, then Block, then Stand Firm, so the rest of the team whirls around them.
The starting Bloodletter will act as main blitzer once the Thirster is in position (since they don't have to follow up into trouble).
The latter Bloodletters will go Guard/Dodge or Dodge/Guard, depending on opponent composition.

[Smeborg]

I'm personally particular to...

7 Pit Fighters: 420k
1 Bloodletter: 80k
2 Heralds: 180k
1 Bloodthirster: 180k
2rr: 140k.

Juriel - I suggest you try that team out in practice and see what happens. I started with 3 Bloodletters, and wished that I had started with 4 (they are the only players that can block or blitz without having to follow up, this ability seems very important to the team). Your roster has 10 Frenzied players, all with no Block, one of them a Loner, and just 2 RR. Kudos to you if you can succeed with such a roster, but I would expect to get trapped by Frenzy much of the time.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

In play, I felt the need for skills not mentioned in my suggested development plans (which I have kept as generic as reasonably possible). For example Hail Mary Pass (it's very easy for the team to push players forward, much more difficult to get the ball to them) and Kick (short kick to the Wide Zone = big problems for the receiving team, unless they can get the ball away). No doubt other skills will suggest themselves in practical play. These skills create the usual development headache for the team (every Lino given a more exotic skill is a Frenzied player without Block). Good fun.

All the best.

[Juriel]

Your roster has 10 Frenzied players, all with no Block, one of them a Loner, and just 2 RR. Kudos to you if you can succeed with such a roster, but I would expect to get trapped by Frenzy much of the time.

See, I think you're screwed anyway. You only have one reliable block per turn (Blitz with Juggernaut), so having one Letter for doing that (and then retreating behind others to some safety) might be enough. Certainly, having extra Bloodletters would allow for cage corners that can actually push people off, but I just think the extra AV7 (some of which will get left open each turn) would make things just as risky in the end as more Frenzy does.

[Smeborg]

Your roster has 10 Frenzied players, all with no Block, one of them a Loner, and just 2 RR. Kudos to you if you can succeed with such a roster, but I would expect to get trapped by Frenzy much of the time.

See, I think you're screwed anyway. You only have one reliable block per turn (Blitz with Juggernaut), so having one Letter for doing that (and then retreating behind others to some safety) might be enough. Certainly, having extra Bloodletters would allow for cage corners that can actually push people off, but I just think the extra AV7 (some of which will get left open each turn) would make things just as risky in the end as more Frenzy does.

I see things differently. The Bloodletters have a 1/9 chance of failing a 2-die block. That's good (for this team), thus I block with them plenty, and is a main reason why I take 3RR. A rookie Pit Fighter, on the other hand, has a 4/27 chance of failing a 2-die block (because of Frenzy), or quite commonly a 23/108 chance (Frenzy trap by opponent). I prefer the 11% chance of failure to the 15% or 21% chances, especially early in the turn. I take the Pit Fighter blocks late in the turn, if I can. Sometimes they work well (the team goes on the rampage), sometimes it ends in early tears.

I don't feel the need to protect the AV7 players in practical play. In fact they seem better at staying on the pitch than the Fighters or Heralds, because they are more likely to end their turn out of contact (only they can choose not to follow up). Longer term, I would expect the Letters to be the most durable of the 3 player-types, given that they start with Regen, with Blodge to follow.

The Heralds are the primary blitzers, especially from the set piece. The Bloodletters are more like auxiliary blitzers, they tend to blitz to get the team out of trouble, when the ball needs to be moved, or when the Heralds are not in the play.

All the best.

[selfy_74]

Do you have any experience with the bloodthirster?

[Smeborg]

Do you have any experience with the bloodthirster?

No, I see him as ineffective in the tabletop environments in which I play (mainly because of Wild Animal, but also because of his high price on what is already a moderately expensive team). But I expect that the Bloodthirster would be effective in some tournament formats, and possibly also in some perpetual environments (e.g. online TV based MM perhaps).

I think Khorne can be validly built as a slayer team, you would have one of the the best ClawPoMb Big Guys, 2 outstanding TacklePoMb Blitzers, and plenty of crowdsurfing. I don't think it would get good match results, nor would it necessarily get that many CAS (you can only take one blitz per turn, Fend would prevent Piling On on the LoS), but it might be quite entertaining (not to mention fluffy). I might try it one day, but for now I'm just planning to go without slayers, concentrating on maximising ordinary blocking and surfing, remedying some of the starting weaknesses, and paying some attention to the ball (more at least than a slayer team would).

All the best.

[Smeborg]

I am changing my thinking on Pit Fighter development, and now think that Wrestle may be the way to go. This was suggested by Juriel and possibly someone else earlier in this thread.

On the mad but wonderful slayer/griefer team (development plan B), I think Block/Dauntless might still be the way to go (with Guard on doubles).

However, on the (for me) more orthodox team (development plan A), I now lean towards Wrestle. Firstly, practical play suggests Dodge as a better first double than Guard, so there is less reason to worry about Block as the complement to Guard. Secondly, it maximises some kind of non-push result when blocking. Thirdly, it reduces the likely number of return hits on the Fighters. Lastly, and most importantly, a quick playtest suggests that the Khorne team is very weak against Wood Elves (and therefore probably also weak against the likes of Skaven, Amazon, Lizzies - they are hardly alone in this regard). Therefore some early Wrestle/Tackle suggests itself.

The secondary problem remains of which Fighters to develop first (out of a Leader, a Thrower and a Wrackler). Since 2 Fighters will be in the backfield on defense for the Plan A team (no Bloodthirster), one could be the Leader (if not used up) and the other a Wrestler/Wrackler (with the Thrower to be used on offense only). The Leader can aspire to Wrestle/Tackle later, to give (eventually) 2 Wrestlers/Wracklers on defense. I like the general shape of that. Kick would have to wait (or be omitted altogether). Plentiful Guard (second normal skill on 6 players) would have to substitute for Dauntless (not ideal, but it makes for a more rounded team). Heralds would be free to take S-Firm as a 3rd skill (Block, Guard, S-Firm) which would seem to suit them (they tend to live near the sideline).

With this, I am getting close to a more or less complete development plan. I'm also starting to get clarity on stat increases. All the best.

[Edit: while Wrestle has its weaknesses, of course, a further reason to take it is because Khorne are practically incapable of defending in the orthodox linear way. They will commonly have lots of players out of position due to Frenzy, but then of course so will the opponent. The broken or scrambled play that results suggests that Wrestle will suit Khorne, at least on defense, by creating more openings to exploit. Not completely dissimilar to Slann, believe it or not.]

[selfy_74]

I very much like all your thinking on this. I have been considering wrestle/fend on the pitfighters. Mostly though, this is because I feel that those two skills seem 'right' on a guy called a pitfighter. I freely admit that this is all theory-bowl for me because I haven't played the team yet, and probably won't until Chaos Edition comes out.

I agree with what you're saying about the Bloodthirster. I think I would start with your 4 bloodletter 1 Herald 3 re-rolls roster. I feel that I would probably have to develop someone into a conventional killer though, because Khorne without a killer just seems 'wrong' from a fluff stand-point.

Thanks, and keep the insight coming please. I'm finding it very informative.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Bloodthirster is essential for this team. There is just no point playing without it.

[selfy_74]

Thanks for the advice, I'll take it on-board.

[Smeborg]

Bloodthirster is essential for this team. There is just no point playing without it.

As I said before, Jimmy, I think it depends on environment. In the environments in which I play, I consider all the Wild Animals TV bloat, thus until I play him, I have little reason to suspect that the Bloodthirster would be much better. I find him appealing, but suspect that he comes with a few problems, e.g.:

- No mutation access means no Tentacles, so he may not be as effective in the long term as the Claw/MB Big Guys with Tents.

- On many turns a Herald (or a Bloodletter) will be a better option for the blitz, so I expect that blitzing every turn with the Bloodthirster will not often be a good strategy.

- He is hard to fit into a starting roster at 180,000 (you badly need the Heralds and Bloodletters, too many Pit Fighters or too few RR and the team, I suspect, will be weak for quite a long time).

- The team is expensive with a Bloodthirster, thus you have to either give something up (players or re-rolls or both) or allow your opponent inducements (or concede skills in TV MM).

- Lastly, he will be a target for the ClawPoMB teams, perhaps quite an easy one.

I don't see a slayer build of the Khorne team doing particularly well against other slayer teams. But I may be wrong. Let us know how you get on with the Bloodthirster in practice.

All the best.

[narg]

I see him [the Bloodthirster] as ineffective in the tabletop environments in which I play (mainly because of Wild Animal, but also because of his high price on what is already a moderately expensive team). But I expect that the Bloodthirster would be effective in some tournament formats, and possibly also in some perpetual environments (e.g. online TV based MM perhaps).

The difference between a wild animal with and without block is massive. One is the opponent's 12th player, the other is a killer. Juggernaut isn't as good as block but if you blitz with him every turn it's nearly the same.

Cross-posted from another website, my current favorite starting roster:
1 Bloodthirster
4 Bloodletters
6 Pit Fighters
2 Rerolls

The Bloodthirster and the Bloodletters are used for reliable blocks, and you just have to pray that the pit fighters don't screw up too badly. No Herald as apart from their strength access they're useless.

I'm experienced with Norse (hence the comment on wild animals) but I haven't tried Khorne yet so maybe this starting roster is a huge mistake, we'll see...

[Smeborg]

The difference between a wild animal with and without block is massive. One is the opponent's 12th player, the other is a killer. Juggernaut isn't as good as block but if you blitz with him every turn it's nearly the same.

Cross-posted from another website, my current favorite starting roster:
1 Bloodthirster
4 Bloodletters
6 Pit Fighters
2 Rerolls

The Bloodthirster and the Bloodletters are used for reliable blocks, and you just have to pray that the pit fighters don't screw up too badly. No Herald as apart from their strength access they're useless.

I'm experienced with Norse (hence the comment on wild animals) but I haven't tried Khorne yet so maybe this starting roster is a huge mistake, we'll see...

Please have a go with that roster and see what happens. For my part, I like the Heralds a lot, I think they are one of the better blitzer types in BB, and good value. Having 2 of them from the start poses good threats for the opponent. The only way to find out the value of the Bloodthirster is to try him out (I have not done so).

All the best.

[Iranian Spy]

RE: The Bloodthirster discussion:

I was given some pretty damn fine advice by Don Vito when he was playing as his Norse with a Mighty Blow Snow Troll. When he was in trouble or men down he would blitz/block with it every turn and generally he found that it helped him catch up very quickly. In the context of the tournament he played it at there were 11 games and it only really let him down once when he was in trouble. Considering the Blood Thirster would have Juggernaught theoretically it would be more reliable than the Snow Troll for that purpose. I can't say for certain how they play compared to Norse but the Thirster seems like a cornerstone in the Khorne toolbox of tricks to stay in play. I might not start with one but I'd want one as soon as possible.

Another point to consider - does this team want to have a decent bench (including a dedicated fouler)? Personally I don't think so but again, going with the Norse comparison - at first appearance it might need to get people off the pitch. Or can it rely on chain pushing?