Cyanide releases their Khorne Roster

[Smeborg]

Hi Spy - your playing experience with Norse appears to differ from mine - that's one of the glories of our game.

I suggest Khorne differ a bit more than you might think from Norse in practical play, at least at the start. Khorne start with 7 or 8 Frenzy players without block, Norse typically start with 0, 1 or 2 such players.

I suspect the Bloodthirster will not get enough opportunities to blitz in most matches, especially against a good coach. Playing without the Bloodthirster, I find I often have to take the blitz with a Bloodletter, especially at the point in the drive when I am in trouble.

I doubt whether Khorne can go toe to toe with a slayer team, they have too many players who are inclined to stay in contact and get hit. Accurate crowdsurfing manouevres will keep them in the drive and in the game, but you can do that without a Bloodthirster. But the game awaits a trailblazer showing us how to use him - could be you.

All the best.

[Juriel]

Guess we won't settle the Bloodthirster question for a few weeks. Me, I'm firmly in the pro camp, though I absolutely hate Wild Animals.

In order of importance: a) only higher than ST3 player b) reliable 2d blitz even with the Frenzy follow-up looming c) only Claw d) only AV9 on the team.

He gives the team something they otherwise cannot have, and once you get him into position, you don't need to blitz with him - just keep pushing opponents to him if the ones near him dodge away. Or let him stand there and be a damn firm Guard pillar for everyone else to rotate around.

While the teams with higher ST are the ones who can hunt the Thirster down, they're also the ones you need him against - same as Norse and Yhetee. Otherwise your team's low ST catches up with them fast, as your lower armor will also break up a lot faster than theirs.

That said, in a TV-based MM environment, or against elf-y teams... poor Thirster, so useless.

[spubbbba]

That said, in a TV-based MM environment, or against elf-y teams... poor Thirster, so useless.

Yeah that’s kind of a shame with the changes to inducements making TV efficiency so much more important.

You really can’t afford to take sub par skills or players anymore, especially in TV matched environments. Though I’d say it’s actually more important in scheduled leagues as giving away an extra 50/100/150K etc can make all the difference and in leagues individual games are far more important.

So we have the rather sad state of affairs that big guys, even awesome team defining ones like the Beast of Nurgle often get left out. At 180k a Bloodthirster is a massive investment so if you’re going to take him you really need to be getting your money’s worth as 3 pit fighters may be a better investment.

[Hitonagashi]

That said, in a TV-based MM environment, or against elf-y teams... poor Thirster, so useless.

Yeah that’s kind of a shame with the changes to inducements making TV efficiency so much more important.

You really can’t afford to take sub par skills or players anymore, especially in TV matched environments. Though I’d say it’s actually more important in scheduled leagues as giving away an extra 50/100/150K etc can make all the difference and in leagues individual games are far more important.

So we have the rather sad state of affairs that big guys, even awesome team defining ones like the Beast of Nurgle often get left out. At 180k a Bloodthirster is a massive investment so if you’re going to take him you really need to be getting your money’s worth as 3 pit fighters may be a better investment.

I disagree that the Thirster isn't worth it. This team is terribly vulnerable to minmax without him. Image the typical "Extra Small" 6x superstar clawbombing chaos dwarves + 5 rookie hobs at 1200 against a Khorne team with no Thirster. I really can't see a way that the Khorne would stand a chance. With the Thirster, it gives you an option to remove minmax blitzers, and since they can get clawbomb on it by 1100 TV easily...it gives you something that can stand up to the dwarves. It also works against the Pact minmax. Given as they won't have any big guys, it's a piece that with 1 skill can keep your claw blitzes in parity with theirs, which is often all it takes.

In TV based matching, Elves typically don't show up, so the major weakness of a Khorne roster (elves) isn't actually there!

If this team ever makes it to FUMBBL, I'm taking one in the Box.

[Smeborg]

I suggest this is not a grinding team, and that they may in fact be rather bad at it. I think they aspire to be more creative than that.

[RogueThirteen]

I suggest this is not a grinding team, and that they may in fact be rather bad at it. I think they aspire to be more creative than that.

This team strikes me as being a lot like Necromantic and Lizardmen. It's all about positioning. If you're a good positioning coach, you can do well with Necros/Lizards and can probably handle this Khorne team. If positioning isn't a strength of yours, these teams will fall apart under your control. And, of course, neither Lizardmen, Necro, nor Khorne are proper bash teams nor should they be played like bash teams.

I, for one, love creative teams like this that require rather unforgiving space control to win. Suits my play style much more (probably all those years of chess) and is personally much more interesting to me than an Agility or Bash team modus operandi.

[Smeborg]

STARTING ROSTERS
--------------------------------
Although I had good fortune in my first game, and finished the first half with a RR in hand, I suspect this is very much the exception, and that the early burning of RRs is very much a part of this team, especially at the start. Even ignoring the mass Frenzy, lack of block, no ball handling skills and the need to GFI (all MA6) is enough to burn RRs. Sadly, this leads me to believe that starting with 3 RRs is a must (as is early Leader). If you agree, this cuts out a lot of possible starting rosters (including those with the Bloodthirster), leaving perhaps 3 choices:

(a) 2 Heralds, 3 Bloodletters, 6 Pit fighters, 3 RR (TV99)
(b) 1 Herald, 4 Bloodletters, 6 Pit Fighters, 3 RR (TV98)
(c) 4 Bloodletters, 7 Pit Fighters, 3 RR, Apoth (TV100)

I took (a), which I think is the best and the most dynamic, also having the best crowdsurfing potential. (b) would be playable (quite a bit less dynamic, but more reliable), while the more extreme (c) would I suspect be somewhere between dull and unplayable, but in theory at least would the most resilient of the rosters.

I also like (a) because I want to skill up the Heralds ASAP. With the purchase of the Apoth and 1 player, rosters (a) and (b) become otherwise the same.

[Hitonagashi]

I suggest this is not a grinding team, and that they may in fact be rather bad at it. I think they aspire to be more creative than that.

This team strikes me as being a lot like Necromantic and Lizardmen. It's all about positioning. If you're a good positioning coach, you can do well with Necros/Lizards and can probably handle this Khorne team. If positioning isn't a strength of yours, these teams will fall apart under your control. And, of course, neither Lizardmen, Necro, nor Khorne are proper bash teams nor should they be played like bash teams.

I, for one, love creative teams like this that require rather unforgiving space control to win. Suits my play style much more (probably all those years of chess) and is personally much more interesting to me than an Agility or Bash team modus operandi.

+1. As an avid Lizard coach, I'm really looking forward to playing this team. I wouldn't call a 'grind' boring...a good stall is the most tricky playstyle out there with a non-bash team!

[RogueThirteen]

+1. As an avid Lizard coach, I'm really looking forward to playing this team. I wouldn't call a 'grind' boring...a good stall is the most tricky playstyle out there with a non-bash team!

Indeed, I'm primarily a lizzie/necro/ogre coach myself, and these Khonre have some appeal for me. And a good stall/grind with a team like Necro or Lizards is indeed one of the trickier things out there because you have poor mobility, limited ball-control ability, and some relatively vulnerable players.

Not sure a stall/grind by orcs, dwarves, chaos dwarves, or chaos is necessarily all that tricky (well, at least it's not nearly as tricky). But I certainly don't mean to judge -- I fully expect I'd be a flat-out terrible Bash Team coach as those teams present a whole slew of other challenges. I respect people who can play them well, I like to play against them, but boy howdy it's just not for me.

Now these tricksy little Khorne....yes....these I like. I probably won't actually play them anytime soon, though, as I get the impression some people in my league aren't keening on allowing an untested team that's not NAF-Approved, and I can understand that. Plenty of other teams out there to keep us busy in the meantime.

[Smeborg]

Having worked through the issues (mostly on this thread), I have a working development plan which I expect to stick to:

Heralds: Block, Guard (doubles: Dodge)
1st Bloodletter: Dodge, S-Hands, Block
Other Bloodletters: Dodge, Guard, Block
1st Pit Fighter: Leader, Block, Tackle
2nd Pit Fighter: S-Hands, Pass, Accurate (or similar)
Other Pit Fighters: Block, Tackle (doubles: Guard)

Stat increases: +ST and +AG on anybody, +MA only on Heralds or Bloodletters

I have compromised the various ideas I have previously had (e.g. Block/D-Less and Wrestle/Tackle on the Pit Fighters has been compromised to Block/Tackle). I suspect the Bloodletters will skill up the fastest (because of their better mobility). For the Heralds and ordinary Pit Fighters, I will wait and see what to give as third skill, there is plenty of choice. Beyond 3 skills is a bit speculative without more playing experience.

The biggest change is to create a dedicated Bloodletter Runner. This looks like quite an attractive build, combining well with the skills they start with, and it relieves a specialism from the overworked Pit Fighters. As it means one less player with Guard, I have reverted to Guard as first doubles choice for the Pit Fighters. 3 specialists on the team seems enough (Thrower, Runner, Leader). I won't bother with a Kicker or Fouler.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

2 more games in our friendly open league, both against rookie teams, same coach:

Game 2 against Necros: won 3-0 (CAS: 2-2). Won the toss and received, got a CAS and a stun on the LoS, followed by a KO on turn 2 (all Zombies). Won the game quite easily on numbers, both Zombies who got CASd failed their Regen, meanwhile both my Regen and my Apoth (following a 56 on a Pit Fighter) worked. My opponent got sloppy at the end when disheartened, 2-0 would have been a fair result. Got lucky with an early turnover at the critical point in the game. Laid down a lot of blocks, surfed (IIRC) a couple, was quite lucky with ball handling.

Game 3 against Norse: won 2-0 (CAS: 2-0). Won the kick and received, had a bad first turn, spilling the ball near the LoS. Everything worked ridiculously well after that, got 2 CAS and 3 KOs on the first drive, vs. 2 KOs suffered. Won very easily on numbers in the end, with lots of KOs later in the match (11 vs. 2 by the end). Meanwhile my opponent could hardly break armour. He came close to scoring on the first drive, having recovered the ball, but I got it back eventually and made a lucky Long Pass upfield for the first score. Similar story on the second drive following a passing play by my opponent. Ball handling continued to be lucky, until the last drive, when it failed utterly (otherwise it would have been 3-0). Again had a lucky break in the form of an early turnover at a critical point.

So 2 wins and 1 draw after the first 3 games, not sure that is representative of much, my opponents' teams are not known for starting well (HE, Necros, Norse), I got lucky by winning the kick-off 3/3 times, and had plenty of other luck (especially with ball handling). Khorne seem to dominate as soon as they get a little bit up on numbers. My opponent said "Khorne are very good on their second turn". Interesting observation, that.

[Smeborg]

Here is my ridiculous roster after 3 games:

Herald: +1ST (9 SPPs)
Herald: - (0)
Bloodletter: +1ST (8)
Bloodletter: +1MA (8)
Bloodletter: - (2)
Bloodletter: - (0)
Pit Fighter: Leader (6)
Pit Fighter: - (5)
Pit Fighter: - (5)
3 x Pit Fighters: - (0)
Apoth
RR: 3
FF: 3
Treasury: 30,000
TV: 130

With those skill advances, it will be hard to find opponents, I may well not see another game. SPPs are very well spread, with the 6 TDs being by 5 different players. The team has seemed quite resilient, but this is also down to luck (Regen has always worked, as has the Apoth). All I need is a couple of +AG now...

[swilhelm73]

Necro start slow - and I can imagine that Khorne would be a particularly tough matchup. Your advantage is positioning and your opponent is better at positioning then you are.

HE and Norse though? I would argue they start fairly strong - especially norse. Outside of Dw and Orc, they are going to be a tough TV1000-1200 team to face.

[Smeborg]

GENERAL COMMENTS ON THE TEAM
-----------------------------------------------------------
I also played some games against myself a week ago to see what happened to Khorne against some of the better teams:

vs. Orcs: lost 1-2 (lost the CAS too). A far from traditional 2-1 grind. Forced the Orcs to spill the ball (forced passing play), but was unable to make it hurt, conceding on turn 8, not without luck. Scored on my receive in the second half, but the Orcs dominated on numbers by the end of the match, scoring on turn 16.

vs. Dwarfs: lost 0-1 (lost the CAS too). Another far from traditional grind. Shut the Dwarfs out in the first half, sacked them more than once, but couldn't get a turnover score, and ran out of numbers in the second half, with the Dwarfs getting a turnover score on turn 16, not without luck fortune.

vs, WE: (half game only) lost 0-2 after suffering 2 Blitzes!, with the WEs getting 2 turnover scores with consummate ease. Could hardly lay a finger on them, Blodge, Dodge/AG4 and high MA was far too much for Khorne.

[Edit: Also a lucky 2-1 win against Khemri, lost the CAS. Scored in 2 when kicking with extreme luck on ball handling.]

This is only a feeling, it is not a representative sample, but I am inclined to find Khorne somewhat better than "tier 1.5". At least they feel better when played than they look (to me) in theory. The Juggernaut players are outstanding, they make the team very resourceful. Frenzy on the Pit Fighters does not seem to be much of a nega-trait, more of an advantage. It makes the team weak (or at least peculiar) on turn 1 of offense, it means you often have to take the Pit Fighter blocks late in the turn (or do nothing, or dodge away), but it also means you lay down a lot of blocks and get a lot of knockdowns. I can only recall 1 early turnover caused by Frenzy in 3 games. I am not very experienced with Frenzy teams, perhaps a more experienced coach would be getting even more knockdowns and crowdsurfs than I am. There is lots of potential for chainpushing manoeuvres, obviously, I expect I am only seeing some of them.

A main characteristic of the team in practical play is that you observe your opponent melting away from the sidelines. This gives the Khorne team a lot of room and command of space, notwithstanding being "only" MA6. This suggests, for example, that scoring in 2 turns should not be overly difficult if you have a RR in hand (although I have not done it yet). Opponents struggle to put up a meaningful line defense against Khorne, especially once play is broken, or there are some CAS/KOs/stuns/knockdowns. They are a good team for pressuring the opponent into making mistakes.

They like to pass, although this is typically from broken play, when they are in trouble, or they have just got the ball off the opponent. Given this, I am not at all sure how a Thrower could fit into the team (he would surely be always out of position - or splatted).

I suspect the performance of the team will be wildly different according to environment and opponent. I suggest they will struggle against both ClawPoMb and TacklePoMb teams (both have plenty of juicy targets), as I doubt whether they can afford to take much Fend, and they often stay in contact with opponents. My 3 matches saw a great many armour rolls equal to AV, so even mass M-Blow may pose a problem. I also suspect Khorne will not like the Blodge teams, especially the faster AG4 teams. But only time and lots of matches will tell. So far they seem to be performing somewhat above my expectation.

All the best.

[Shteve0]

Has anyone mentioned Strip Ball for a herald/letter or two? Horns+Jugs+StripBall sounds like a complete nightmare to try to deal with.

Ps, great work on this, Paul. I'll put trying them out in the pipeline after Slann, Apes and Khemri