Talk Fantasy Football

0-16 Pit Fighter 60k 6/3/3/8 GP / AS Frenzy
0-4 Bloodletter Daemon 80k 6/3/3/7 GAS / P Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration
0-2 Khorne Herald 90k 6/3/3/8 GS / AP Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut
0-1 Bloodthirster 180k 6/5/1/9 S / GAP Loner, Wild Animal, Claw, Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration
RR: 70k
Apoth: yes

Starplayers:
Morg and Grashnak

Use this thread for the tactics and development for using the roster.

Use this thread: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=37116 to discuss the roster itself, and it's place in BB.

A major challenge to develop this team in a league, I suspect. I'll have a go on the basis of first impressions.

I would drop the Bloodthirster, on the basis that Wild Animals are the most marginal of Big Guys (easy to isolate, needing a 4+ to do anything). Plus they cost the same as 3 expensive Linos. And they make great Mercs in case of need (260,000 for a Bloodthirster with M-Blow).

I would start with 3 RR, as well as taking Leader on the first Lino to skill up. With all that naked Frenzy, they need RRs. 23 points of TV for 4RR is not too bad. This means a standard suggested starting roster is:

2xKH
3xBD
6xPF
3xRR
TV:99

The team lacks Block and Guard the most, also the Frenzy players with ST access will need S-Firm at some point, if they don't want to be counter-surfed all the time.

I might try Block then Dauntless on a couple of Linos (after the Leader), to make up for the lack of ST4 players. I doubt whether I would bother to develop any Linos into Throwers, Frenzy is not a good skill to have on any ball-holding player.

I am not sure the team needs P-On, given its lack of Claw access, and the ability to crowd-surf in spades. So the Heralds might simply go Block, Guard to start with. M-Blow, Tackle, S-Firm perhaps after that, not sure in which order. Hard to see anyone on the team getting Tackle before 3rd skill, which is very late. Wrestle probably not needed on the team at all, with all that Frenzy (also the Linos will take Guard on a doubles roll, which is better with Block). S-Ball a possibility on a Herald or two (combines perfectly with Frenzy/Horns/Jugs).

The Daemons are the odd players, they are in major skill deficit, like other players who cook with GAS (Vampires, Slann Blitzers). With easy access to the holy trinity of Block, Dodge, S-Hands plus starting Horns/Jugs, they are the best candidates to be runners. However, they are also strong candidates for Guard and Grab (the latter very tempting, surely). So probably a split is implied between (say) 1-2 Runners, and 2-3 Grab/Guarders. Early Blodge needed on all of them, though. Since they have Jugs, Dodge can be considered as first skill (not sure I would do this though, except in a tourney, since the Daemons are the only reliable quiet blockers on the team without Frenzy, possibly just on a lone Runner). Lots of thinking to do here. Perhaps S-Firm as a late skill, being 1 skill less than S-Step/Fend, and working nicely with Grab. Grab is good too on the Runner(s), with Horns/Jugs/Grab/Dodge they can barrel their way through most single-line defenses.

The team looks quite resilient, the AV7 players have Blodge access plus Regen, if you have the discipline not to use the Apoth on these guys, then the rest of the team, all AV8, can share the Apoth. Thus somewhat more resilient than your average team, which I expect they will need, since they are not a slayer team.

With everyone being AG3/MA6, well rounded team development is implied (TDs will be well spread). I can envisage a very good team at the theorybowl level of 6 skills each (a good sign), what order to take them in is the challenge, as usual

I look forward to testing out the team for real. May have to change my mind on which team to take next season (again)! These are just first impressions, feel free to help me out.

Hmm, I'm not sure Smeborg...Bloodthirster could be interesting to take.

Given that a) this is Cyanide, and b) in the same release, Cyanide have enabled all the 1300 TV minmaxed chaos dwarves teams that plague the FUMBBL Box, then I think you need a way of removing AV 9 targets.

Without a Bloodthirster, against a well played guarded up Dwarf/Orc team, you are royally stuffed. The Frenzy will drag you into trouble, and you won't break armour often enough.

Hitogonashi - I am open-minded, but Wild Animal is so bad, the Bloodthirster will waste half his turns against a good coach. I have yet to play with a team where I felt that the Snow Troll, the Rat Ogre or the Minotard was good value. You can only take one Blitz per turn, good play will ensure that blitzing with the Big Guy is a poor option. I love to strand Wild Animals or knock them over.

And I'm mainly thinking tabletop.

I'm tempted by all the frenzy, I think it would be hard work to play with. I've started a thread for mulling over which figures to use: http://talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopi ... 23&t=37131

Smeborg wrote:Hitogonashi - I am open-minded, but Wild Animal is so bad, the Bloodthirster will waste half his turns against a good coach. I have yet to play with a team where I felt that the Snow Troll, the Rat Ogre or the Minotard was good value. You can only take one Blitz per turn, good play will ensure that blitzing with the Big Guy is a poor option. I love to strand Wild Animals or knock them over.

And I'm mainly thinking tabletop.

Tabletop, completely agreed. The Bloodthirster is far too expensive for low TV play.

I've seen those big guys put to good use in FUMBBL high TV play. Azure especially (who is a wonderful coach) won one of the Blackbox majors with a skaven team built around a legendary juggernaut/claw/mb/po rat ogre. They aren't bad, provided that a) you are willing to blitz with them every turn, and b) you are willing to occasionally lose your blitz. Sure, you can't use them like regular blitzers, but if you plan for their incompetence, they can be effective.

I like Smeborg's suggested starting roster.

When we designed the team we did look at building the roster so that a 2 RR full positional no Big Guy team was possible (to help prevent us from over-skilling & over-stating the team).

So it was designed with the knowledge that you can do this to max out the positionals:

5 Pit Fighters
4 Bloodletters
2 Heralds
2 Rerolls

and then you have the choice between
Apothecary & 10k left ... OR ... 6th Pit Fighter

Tom/Galak

Galak, I've never playtested this team, but is 2 rerolls really enough with all that frenzy and not much block?

This lineup looks more like it should need 3/4 at least?

Hitogonashi - I am open-minded, but Wild Animal is so bad, the Bloodthirster will waste half his turns against a good coach. I have yet to play with a team where I felt that the Snow Troll, the Rat Ogre or the Minotard was good value.

Actually I wouldn't put the mino in that group because he has access to Tentacles which is a game changer for a WA. I've got a Mino on one of my Chaos teams who has been the best player on the roster for a while now. League MVP last season, 3rd place in the voting this season.

Block/MB/Claw/Frenzy/Horns is great versus bash sides, and Tents makes the big guy useful vs agile sides since they can't automatically dodge away on a 2+.

Hitonagashi wrote:Galak, I've never playtested this team, but is 2 rerolls really enough with all that frenzy and not much block?

This lineup looks more like it should need 3/4 at least?

For league play ... no.

For tournament play where you can probably pick up a Leader 3rd reroll easily with most rules ... it should be okay (if it was used in tournament play).

Tom

GalakStarscraper wrote:

Hitonagashi wrote:Galak, I've never playtested this team, but is 2 rerolls really enough with all that frenzy and not much block?

This lineup looks more like it should need 3/4 at least?

For league play ... no.

For tournament play where you can probably pick up a Leader 3rd reroll easily with most rules ... it should be okay (if it was used in tournament play).

Tom

Agreed, the possible tournament rosters for Khorne look OK to me, based on this tactic (2RR + Leader).

I glanced at this team once, and decided that if I were ever to be tempted to glance at it again I'd make a Norse team.

I've been thinking about this team, since they're like a different variety of Norse, and intriguing as hell. It's a remarkable design feat to manage to make an interesting Khorne team.

Bloodthirster, first off, I think is a necessity for his Claw (just like Yhetee for Norse) - even more so when he's your ONLY player with Strength above 3. Against any kind of a bashy side, you're going to have less skills, less ST and less armor than them, so you need something. Even if it's a Wild Animal. This is one of the rare necessary big guys, IMO.

Bloodletters are your blitzing pieces for serious plays, IMO, because you need someone who is able to punch people away without following them. So creating the first hole in the opponent's line falls to them. Of course, with their GAS access, they're spoiled for choice - Blodge seems obvious, considering their fragile nature, but doing that for all four leaves the ST3 team badly lacking in Guard. I think going for 2 blodgers (to plug holes with) and 2 supports (with Guard as the first skill) might work better.

Heralds, poor, Heralds, you get thrown into the scrum with just Block/Guard, because you have AV8 (even if no Regen). Because of the team's lack of ST, I might be tempted to give them Guard as first skill and let everyone else Frenzy around them - hitting with Heralds themselves is troublesome in that it may take your Guard to places you don't want it, while everyone else beating people off them might keep them free to move where needed. Would shorten their lifespan, but you need to establish control somehow.

Pit Fighters, first one to level gets Leader, the rest need Block OR Wrestle. Block lets them stand in the way and perhaps endure return hits with AV8, Wrestle lets them take down Black Orcs rather than get stuck next to them and eat an MB hit next... I could see going either way. Fend is the skill after that, because the team's biggest problem is getting marked by superior power every single turn.

Now, that barely gets the team up to speed against bashies... Elves, with their Blodge Sidesteppers, are going to run circles around them, and I'm just not sure where to fit any Tackle. You could rely on Frenzy as a poor man's Tackle, since with Horns even Sidestep shouldn't prevent 2d follow-up blocks too often, but it won't do much to keep them from dodging one step away all the time. And you don't have cheap linefodder to foul them away with, either! So that starts calling for a Bloodletter with Diving Tackle, but they already have so many other necessary skills to pick...

Juriel - I don't see the Khorne team as a variety of Norse. Norse can start with all Block and even with no Frenzy, if the coach so chooses. Khorne, however, have no Block and must start every drive with 7 or more Frenzy players on the pitch (the number goes up as the Daemons go into the dugout or are missing the game). Whereas the number of Frenzy players on the pitch for Norse is not only lower, but will tend to go down, not up (as the Frenzy players go into the dugout). These are all very different dynamics, as are Horns+Jugs. The Khorne team is better at crowdsurfing, but weaker at the blocking game, with an implied greater loss of control over players and their position.

I don't see the Bloodthirster as a necessity, but I am open-minded, I guess it depends partly on environment. My take on Khorne is that they are not a slayer team, rather they are a crowdsurfing team. I expect a split to develop between coaches who play them in a slayer style (i.e. for CAS SPPs), and those who do not. We will see who does better.

My initial take on the Fighters is that (after the obligatory Leader) Block+Dauntless (and them possibly Pro) would be the way to go. I don't see any other players who are candidates for early Dauntless, which this team badly needs. Then you have a player-type who can take on the Black Orcs of this world and their ilk. Once I had a Leader and a couple of Block+Dauntless Fighters, I would consider Block+Fend for the line (but I might just carry on in the same vein).

I agree that lack of early Tackle looks like something of a headache for this team. I guess 3rd skill for the Heralds is a strong possibility. The other solution, as with starting Norse, is to use Frenzy as a poor man's substitute for Tackle. Another potentially interesting dynamic as the team develops is Grab on the Daemons, enabling them to herd Blodgers towards Frenzied team-mates.

Hope that helps and all the best.