(Un-)Living NecroTacticum: Necros vs the world of Blood Bowl

[Digger Goreman]

Alright, let's refine the questioning (centered around defeating Sir Timmy Cheesemonger): What is the best setup (receiving and kicking) vs elves (and, if you are adventurous, skaven, green elves and spam, i.e. slann, and lizzies).... Why do you use the setup and what is the probable lines of attack and the probable outcome?

[swilhelm73]

For defense against Elves I'd go with the Ziggaraut. With either the wolves, ghouls, or golems at the farthest wings - depending on time, your skills, and their skills.

For example, it is tough for elves to most a block/SF/ST4 player in that position and they'll have to go up the middle instead. It doesn't really matter if it is T1, but does if it is T7.

OTOH, SS blodge wolves can be a scary player in that position as well. Don't knock them down and they will push you out...

[Smeborg]

Digger - another area of difficulty that I have with Necros is that (relative to other teams) they seem to struggle at the beginning (TV100 and thereabouts), before they have their full roster. I notice this when I play with them and against them. So any wise words of advice in this regard would be helpful, I suggest.

All the best.

[Digger Goreman]

Agreed, and though not stated, beginning necro is my emphasis because that is indeed where they struggle most....

I'm currently looking at and reviewing some defensive setups on Fumbl.... Maybe we can set up a ziggurat vs longbow discussion vis-a-vis strengths and weaknesses....

I am wondering if I am too hung up on preventing penetration and need to revamp my thinking along the lines of counter-attack... For example: I feel that the zig and longbow both deny exploitation of Blitz and Kick opportunities....

[swilhelm73]

Stopping penetration isn't necessarily the most important thing in defending.

Put yourself in your opponent's shoes. Do you want to score in two turns and then have to kick off to your opponent giving them enough time to even the score and get the ball at the half?

Bash teams, especially at higher TV, are going to want to spend 8 turns pummeling you before they score so just getting in front of them might not be the best defense. More often the best defense is leaving some risky scoring opportunities open, at least in early turns, to better threaten the ball or key opposing players while protecting yours.

Remember the worst thing that can happen to you at the end of the half, generally, is giving up a TD on T8. While stopping the opposition is a valid goal, making them score fast is still a partial win.

But as usual, this all depends on the the two teams and your strategy before the game.

Speaking of which, pre-game strategy and research might make a good topic here one day.

[Smeborg]

Agreed, and though not stated, beginning necro is my emphasis because that is indeed where they struggle most....

I'm currently looking at and reviewing some defensive setups on Fumbl.... Maybe we can set up a ziggurat vs longbow discussion vis-a-vis strengths and weaknesses....

I am wondering if I am too hung up on preventing penetration and need to revamp my thinking along the lines of counter-attack... For example: I feel that the zig and longbow both deny exploitation of Blitz and Kick opportunities....

Digger - I suggest counter-attack is an important mode for Necros. They really excel when they get a Blitz! or a deep kick (or they get lucky and the opponent drops his first pick-up). Especially at the beginning, it seems to me that they are better off counter-attacking and sniping than trying to defend in depth, especially against any team which is stronger than them and likes to grind them down.

In this regard Necros are a bit (ahem) like Humies, they need to adapt to the opponent. Their main advantage is their mini-maxed speed, this does not last if they allow themselves to be ground. They have only about 4 "fast" players on the starting roster. But I do not claim to be experienced with them.

All the best.

[MKL]

Defending against elves I use a Ziggurath o an inverted Ziggurath. Against bash I use an asimmetrical Ziggurath+kick.
About counterattack: against ag4 teams counterattacking is tricky. They can swiftly move the ball across the field, leaving my fast players in the wrong side, while the ag2 ones are easily tied up or unable to capitalize on a spilled ball (in this, humans are better: albeit mediocre, every human player can dare a dodge or pick-up).
In my experience counterattacking is easier against bashers

[Cestrian]

Hi guys,

Great thread this, really interesting and helpful. I've only recently returned to Blood Bowl after several years away (at uni). I used to run a human team with some success but decided to give Necromantic a go for a small tourny that myself and three of my friends played last weekend (vs Humans, Orcs and Lizardmen).

The team I started with was: 2 werewolves, 2 ghouls, 2 wights, 5 zombies, 3 re-rolls (we had 5 fan factor free too). The reason for this was twofold. 1) Pace. I didn't want to be stuck in the middle with loads of MA 4 guys who wouldn't be able to threaten a ball carrier deep in my half. 2) Zombies are ideally suited to getting in the way of more expensive pieces. Even if all they do is stand up again, they're doing a good job.

On defence I tended to put 3 in the line and then had one zombie just behind, with the other two wide, though not in the wide zones. The wide zones had wights and werewolves, with the ghouls deep. I would then concentrate on containing their drive, making sure to always seem to be threatening the ball carrier in order to force a mistake out of them. It worked pretty well, though I'd be worried if I played faster opponents.

Attack I deployed the ghouls deep again and overloaded one side. Then I'd form a rough cage to get a werewolf within touchdown distance. Once or twice I went down the other side to keep them guessing (and because they'd over committed). Again, this worked well, though did involve some very complex blocking at times.

Upgrade wise, I bought Flesh Golems when I could afford them, but I can't say that they were terribly effective. Useful to have though. I gave dodge to a werewolf (to aid with getting to the line) and sure hands to a ghoul. Nothing else upgraded.

One tactic which I enjoyed employing was blitzing with my ball carrying werewolf. Obviously I made it was two dice in my favour, but it certainly surprised my opponents and didn't really hinder my progress to the line.

[TheDoc]

I played Necro two seasons ago and used Diggers NecroTacticum as my basis for the team.

I started with the 2 wolf, 2 golum, 2 wight 5 zombies and 2 RR build. In short it was awesome. Two wolves make your opponent mess themselves as you storm 8 squares in any direction and to top it off you own those sidelines. Make the wolves the ball carrier, two TDs later and block is yours. It is then time to unleash the dogs of war. The wights are excellent support players (even better with guard) and secondary ball carriers. The golums can make you and keep you space that you need to rush the wolves through.

Once you have block on the wolves and are on the way to dodge (praying for MB or a strength boost!!!) you can buy a ghoul. Again get 2 TDs and get sure hands followed by block. Buy the 3rd RR and robert is your mothers brother. Add more goodness by getting the 2nd ghoul.

My zombies were disposible but were also fantastic. There is nothing better than having your zombie hold any big guy/star player for 8 turns and just getting him back up each turn. The zombie boot is also excellent for the occassional foul.

I went on to win the conference championship with this build in season 1 and I love the team. I now play vamps and I can honestly say I miss my wolves with a passion. Excellent players and the reason to play Necro.

Thanks Digger

[Digger Goreman]

You are very much welcome!

I've played two games since the last reply and have had good luck (and two wins) with Necros and then Vampires, against Orcs and Undead respectively.... Both games were 2-1 affairs... the Orcs at even TV and the Undead at -33k with a darned hot pot that stole both my rerolls each half!

I used a modified FUMBBL "Longbow" (I'm calling it the "shortbow") and it worked surprisingly well even against Quick Snaps.... (I'm away from my computer and books/bag so can't work a graphic right now....) Golems in the wings encouraged the opposition to "go down Broadway" where the Wolves and Wights counter-attacked relentlessly! In the Vamp game I worked the counter with two blocking thralls, three wrestle thralls, and the threat of two leaping pro Vamps (actually never leapt once in the game, but it really freaked my opponent into guarding against it....) Not having rerolls was uber-challenging, but the team is a carry-over from the Iron Man format and I am somewhat used to it....

For the Necros I have three rerolls now and have bought my first ghoul.... I think I will play only one G at a time (as suggested) and see how the dice roll....

Matt, I think the Wights are destined to either go Guard, MiB, Tackle... or MiB, Guard, Tackle with the regrettable reliance on casualties, and the need to assist others, slowing down progression.... Early doubles on zombies, early and lucky advancement of Golems with guard, or a concentration on Wights as ball carriers, might change the speed (if not the equation) of Wight advancement.... The above anomalies might also allow the Wights to forego guard and become hunters with MiB, Tackle, Strip Ball/Diving Tackle in some combination....

Lots of theory, I'm afraid....

[Tackledummy]

Starting line up (Offence)
Three zombies and two Wights on the LOS (Wights positioned so they can get 2D-Blocks, ie usually ZWZWZ)
One ghouls far back (Four squares from the end zone, on the hatch) in each wide zone
One wolf forward (Three to four squares behind the LOS) in each wide zone)
Two zombies three squares behind the LOS

Idea behind this is to block down the opponents on the LOS and run up the remaining zombies to mark players.

I'm just curious about this tactic against teams that can out muscle youon the line of scrimmage i.e. Orcs, Ogres, Khemri or even Chaos Pact potentially. How do you change tactic here?

[Pedda]

Starting line up (Offence)
Three zombies and two Wights on the LOS (Wights positioned so they can get 2D-Blocks, ie usually ZWZWZ)
One ghouls far back (Four squares from the end zone, on the hatch) in each wide zone
One wolf forward (Three to four squares behind the LOS) in each wide zone)
Two zombies three squares behind the LOS

Idea behind this is to block down the opponents on the LOS and run up the remaining zombies to mark players.

I'm just curious about this tactic against teams that can out muscle you on the line of scrimmage i.e. Orcs, Ogres, Khemri or even Chaos Pact potentially. How do you change tactic here?

Then I'd use Zombies to tie up his bashy players on the LOS and swing a FG around the corner, to hinder his players from leaving the LOS.
My speedy players would then try to out maneuver him on one side.

However, I don't think say a Kehmri coach would put his Tomb Guards on the LOS, since it would weaken his flanks and it helps me when trying to out maneuver him.

[Tackledummy]

It's definitely an interesting build. You've got no Flesh Golems to swing round according to your starting roster so you'd have to substitute them with something else; I'm assuming zombies.

I'm looking at playing Necros in our next league season and I love the look of the build but I'm a little worried about how it would fare against the bash teams with no Golems to take the hits. Of course taking on Flesh Golems early means waiting for the other flashier positionals so I'm very keen to hear how your team's been progressing and if you're winning games with it. If so against what kind of teams?

[Pedda]

It's definitely an interesting build. You've got no Flesh Golems to swing round according to your starting roster so you'd have to substitute them with something else; I'm assuming zombies.

I'm looking at playing Necros in our next league season and I love the look of the build but I'm a little worried about how it would fare against the bash teams with no Golems to take the hits. Of course taking on Flesh Golems early means waiting for the other flashier positionals so I'm very keen to hear how your team's been progressing and if you're winning games with it. If so against what kind of teams?

Yes, lacking a FG I'd use a zombie. However, I wouldn't advice you to use my build. I've plaied two games with it and I miss the FG. The games were against dwarfs (Draw 1-1) and chaos dwarfs (Loss 1-2).
If I were to start again, I'd go with hte following roster:

2 WW
2 Wights
2 FG
5 Zombies
2 RR

20 000 GS in the bank for a future investment of a ghoul, once my two werewolfs have gotten Block. Until they do have block, I wouldn't bother with the ghoul, since you need to score with the wolfs anyway. I'd then add the second ghoul, once the first one has block. For the second ghoul I'd go the wrestle route.

[swilhelm73]

IMO, starting with only 2 RRs and not many skills you will find yourself with many early turnovers.

I'd prefer to start Necro with 3, especially as RRs are expensive.