Advice for Underworld vs Dwarves for a Championship!

[SunDevil]

Fellow BBers!

A few seasons back, I asked for advice on how my Khemri could defeat rival Orcs, Chaos Dwarves and then Norse to claim Critical Bowl XIII! You did not disappoint and the Sun City Devils were triumphant with THREE shutout victories!

Now, I am coaching the Sunday Unknowns, a first season Underworld crew, After upsetting the third-seeded Mesopotatema (CDs) and the #1-seed Council of Villains (Lizardmen), my underdog Underworld suddenly find themselves in the BLOOD BOWL versus the #2-seed Jerkville Badditudes, a second season Dwarf team. Here are the teams -

SUNDAY UNKNOWNS (Underworld)
Troll - Claw, Block, Tentacles
Blitzer - Mighty Blow, Claw
Blitzer - rookie (had a 4ST, Claw, MiB Blitzer killed by a ROCK in OT vs Mesopotatema)
Thrower - 4ST, Extra Arms
Thrower - Block
Lineman - Wrestle, Dodge
Lineman - Wrestle, Fend
Goblins (x7) - all rookies
3 RRs, Apoth

JERKVILLE BADDITUDES (Dwarf)
Troll Slayer - Mighty Blow, Pile On (-MV)
Troll Slayer - Guard, Stand Firm
Blitzer - Guard, Stand Firm
Blitzer - Guard, Stand Firm
Blocker - rookie
Blocker - Guard
Blocker - Guard
Blocker - Guard, Stand Firm
Blocker - Guard, Stand Firm
Blocker - Guard
Runner - 4AG, Block, Dodge, LEAP
Runner - Wrestle, Strip Ball
3 RRs, Apoth

I get 220k in inducements. No Stars in playoffs so I am thinking the Wizard and a Babe. Thoughts here?

So I'm glad he has not loaded up on Mighty Blow and the Guard is interesting as I try to play a spread out game with the UW anyway. My game plan is simple -

If I kick - play Matador defense and get out of the way of the cage. If I can get a 11 vs 6 or 7 advantage away from the cage and remove some Dwarves with CLAW, then look for a shot to disrupt the cage, maybe with the Wizard or if he has an unexpected turnover. I'd be happy just to stop the score but if I could score myself within reason, I'd certainly try it. But a Fireball/Lightning Bolt, good scatter and a punt would suit me fine as well. Receive second half, try to score and burn a few turns.

If I receive - try to get good CLAW blocks on the line and push hard to one side, screening with Gobs and the Wrestle Linemen. Have the Troll tie up at least three Dwarves (though he will get blocked a lot), and get good Blitzes every turn with the CLAW Blitzer. Potentially keep the other Thrower on the other side in case I need to run a reverse. Best case scenario - I score on turn 8 and keep my Wizard. Second half, I slow the cage as best as I can, using the Wizard when the opportunity presents itself.

What would you do?

[swilhelm73]

Definitely wiz+babe.

The interesting thing with so much SF and Guard is that he win any scrum you get into, so keep that in mind. All you need to do on D is keep him from getting into scoring position on T8. I imagine if you play good positional defence that on turn 5/6 or so he's going to have to mark up a lot of your players to try and make a gap on the next turn - this will be your chance.

On offence, take your time and spread the field. If he leaps with that ag4 dwarf be ready to gang foul him, and in fact be on the look out for good opportunities to gang foul overall. Trading 40k players for 70k+ ones is always fun.

Save the wiz until you can guarantee a TD or a TD stop - the threat of the wizard will cause him problems.

This is a tough match up for underworld, but based on your record it sounds like you are up to the task!

[SunDevil]

Thank you for the advice, it is greatly appreciated!

I like that Turn 5/6 idea you had - I will look for him to make that push!

My main worry is - can I back up and play a slow-them-down defense when I will have a hard time Dodging from all that Tackle?

[voyagers_uk]

Similar strategy mate, not sure how effective it would be though, never played UW

[Heff]

Drone on constantly about how he is a power gamer and how much you hate playing dwarves as the games are so boring. You are going to have no fun against that team so ensure that he does not playing it. I have done this, it works

Protect your claw player, do not get involved in scrums and hope that the casualty dice go your way and you get a few casualties.

Kudos for the boring guy to have a leap runner, make sure you kill it ASAP

[SunDevil]

I imagined it in my head as a terrible game. It was worse.

Let's try to just give out the bare details so I can put this behind me.

Took Wizard and a babe.

I received. First turn, Claw does nothing and I run strong up the near zone. He KOs Troll on first block and just moves his team right up against me. All my Dodge is gone (Tackle), and every Block is one-die or two-die uphill. I get very lucky with one-die blocks (no cas but no turnovers) and run for the endzone. I stall, he declares "Now I am going to kill your team". I try to hold out as long as possible but I have to score on Turn 6.

Dwarves get a great kick, march right down the field no problem, KOing my guys right and left. Second block on the Troll kills him but he Regens. Dwarves foul-cas my Claw Blitzer, I apoth him, it works. I am forced to wizard on my Turn 8. His turn 8, only a Blitzer can score, gets the pick-up but double ones the first of 2 GFIs. Halftime, UW lead 1-0.

Kick to him. LineGobs get mashed. He surrounds my Troll. I get one shot to Claw/Blitz a Dwarf with two dice and hopefully chainpush a non-StF Guard Dwarf off of the Troll, removing two for one and then getting a Claw block with the Troll. Blitzer rolls block/block, I RR to double skulls. Third Block on Troll kills him again, Regens again but he is off the pitch. More KOs and Cas happen and most of my turns now begin with my players on the ground surrounded by 3+ Guard.

Still.

Two turns in mid-second half (5 and 6 I think) go like this -

Turn 5 - I Dodge with Wrestle Lineman, one die the Runner with ball, Wrestle, scoop up ball with Goblin after three dodges (one from Tackle) and 4+ pick-=iup requiring a RR and he needs one Dodge to get in the open then I would GFI twice to get back over midpitch and hopefully delay Dwarf score. Dodge fail, Tackle, Goblin hurts himself.

Turn 6 - Same Lineman dodges for 4+, then 3+, and one-die-pows the Runner (who had recovered from last turn) and catches the bounce. He then needs a single 3+ Dodge into the open to run away and at least set the Dwarves back. Dodge fails, I have a RR but need to think about the Turn 8 Goblin throw to win so he goes down.

Dwarves recover, I actually end up passing some turns because the game was just garbage, and Dwarves score on Turn 8.

Ensuing kick heads for the endzone and of course stay sin so no Goblins throw. Claw Blitz on Trollslayer does nothing, nor does the follow-up foul

Overtime.

I receive. Gather up the ball, and push hard to the near zone as I did in the first half. Two Claw blocks result in double blocks and a prone, nothing more. Dwarves rush Troll and KO him. That's right - Dwarves blocked him four times all game and REMOVED HIM EVERYTIME. Dwarves move to cover front and Trollslayer that KOed Troll is now based with my 4ST Thrower. I decide to base Dwarves in front, Dodge our with Thrower to Blitz the RUnner in front (not the Blodger) try to knock him down and get as far ahead as I could. All Dwarves that could have based me would be based, he would have to make 4+ Dodges and deal with my 4ST.

Dodge fails, RR, fails.

Dwarves hit everyone, gather the ball, trot downfield. My Claw Blitzer is killed on a meaningless, away-from-the ball block. I try a few desperate Blitzes through zones and Tackle, nothing works. All players smashed down, surrounded by 3+ Guard. I even passed a few turns, just mentally drained and defeated.

Dwarves win.

My opponent is one of my very favorite BB coaches and I told him that. I enjoy playing him and even watching his other games. Great guy, seriously. But I also told him that game was the worst BB game I've played in memory. The least fun, the most turns spent looking at nothing but 4+ Dodges and uphill Blocks, and having most of my team's skill just outright negated.

I retired the team. I only wanted to play Underworld for the Blitzers and Troll, had all three where I wanted them before the playoffs (which I just barely made as the last team in) and the best Blitzer is killed by the OT rock in the Wildcard Round, then the other Blitzer killed in this game. The Troll was killed three times in the playoffs but Regenned everyone. I rebought a Blitzer, got Two Heads on a Goblin with MVP (who was MV-busted in this game) so might return to them in the future.

Just a bad experience all around. My dice were actually very, very lucky in many spots and I feel I played pretty well with a mistake or two here and there. But all that was negated by a team that simply walked up to my team, based everyone, and then forced me to roll against terrible odds just by standing around. And the Underworld were STILL a 3+ away 2 or 3 times in the 2nd half and OT from probably winning.

So close to a dream playoff run. Guard spam is one more reason why I hate the Dwarf roster.

Thanks for reading, time to prepare for the next season!

[mattgslater]

That's rough, Chance.

I'm going into a very similar blender situation on Saturday, vs. CDs. There are some key differences.

I held off giving any advice, because TBH I've played all of 4 games with UWP and am still getting my head around that style of play. But having read your match report, I'd say don't retire them. Just build new Blitzers and keep on trucking. Having found the 3+ nature of dodging to be the biggest hazard to the team, I'd say your answer to keeping your Blitzers alive is having the two-headed Goblin support that minimizes the avenues of blitz/foul on them.

[SunDevil]

That's rough, Chance.

I'm going into a very similar blender situation on Saturday, vs. CDs. There are some key differences.

I held off giving any advice, because TBH I've played all of 4 games with UWP and am still getting my head around that style of play. But having read your match report, I'd say don't retire them. Just build new Blitzers and keep on trucking. Having found the 3+ nature of dodging to be the biggest hazard to the team, I'd say your answer to keeping your Blitzers alive is having the two-headed Goblin support that minimizes the avenues of blitz/foul on them.

Thanks for the thoughts, Matt. When I say 'retire', I really mean 'take a break'. The team is still in our website (meaning I can reactivate it for future seasons) and I did team maintenance before marking them retired. Bought a new Blitzer, gave the Gobbo 2Heads, etc. I will return to them in a few seasons. I switched to Undead, which is a team I 'retired' a few season ago after they lost the title game. The UW will return one day as well and I will certainly take your advice of having more mobile Goblins to protect my killer Blitzers.

Side note - I use Squigs for the Rats so it is a Goblin/Squig team and I did order new Squigs as this was sort of a test run for the minis. When I return to the team, most of the minis will be new as well, hopefully helping them get off to a fresh start!

I may rethink my Guard stance as well. The Troll may eventually take Guard next instead of Stand Firm (both at 76SPPs will be gold) and I was going to take Guard on the 4ST Blitzer next before he died. I would have gone Pile on for the 3ST Blitzer, but not 4ST.

Things to ponder when I return to the team. Good luck in your blender game! Hopefully, those CDs do not have 8 Guard.

[mattgslater]

Nah, only 6. Cakewalk!

[SunDevil]

A Hobgoblin with Guard? Definition of overkill.

There wasn't ANY doubles skill more interesting?

[swilhelm73]

I did like having leader on a Hobgoblin. Which was great...until he died.

[Zagadoo]

Guard is sort of an arms race. You need to keep adding more if you want to avoid being out guarded. I think if you would have had guard blitzers instead of MB Claw doods you might have had a better chance at winning this game. However, you might have been unable to defeat TJ and Tim without the MBC. Also reading the recap, I can't believe I said "I am going to kill all your dudes" I hate when people do that, so I am sorry.

[mattgslater]

Bah, that's just standard pre-game smack. Accompany it with a big smile and "Enjoy!" and it's all goodness.

[SunDevil]

Guard is sort of an arms race. You need to keep adding more if you want to avoid being out guarded. I think if you would have had guard blitzers instead of MB Claw doods you might have had a better chance at winning this game. However, you might have been unable to defeat TJ and Tim without the MBC. Also reading the recap, I can't believe I said "I am going to kill all your dudes" I hate when people do that, so I am sorry.

You should definitely not be sorry about that. You SHOULD want to kill all my players.

With one Blitzer dying in the quarter-finals to the OT rock, it would not have mattered what he had. But you are, right, I would not have won that game without him - he had 2 cas and countless CD stuns before he died.

No way was even two Guard going to do anything against your 8. That is why I don't take Guard on Underworld (so far) because they always our out gunned in scrums with S-based teams.

Besides, I was a 3+ away at least twice from probably winning without any Guard. My lack of Guard wasn't the problem. It was just a terrible match and I didn't get the 3+ when I needed it. It was just good fortune for you that I beat the teams that could have beaten you. Nature of the playoffs!

The team will return someday and those new Blitzers will be even nastier than the last ones!

[Smeborg]

No way was even two Guard going to do anything against your 8. That is why I don't take Guard on Underworld (so far) because they always our out gunned in scrums with S-based teams.

I take Guard on Underworld teams for 3 reasons:

- My 2 or 3 Underworld teams with Guard performed better than the team which took no Guard (the latter seemed to be comprehensively outgunned).

- Guard allows me to take my blocks on the LoS more or less as I please on the first turn of offense, acting as a multiplier for the Underworld slayer skills. I don't expect to get into any block wars or scrums if I can avoid it.

- In the right circumstances, Guard allows me to cage the ball for a turn or two, particularly important against teams that like to make surgical strikes (AG teams).

The one downside I have noticed with Guard on the Blitzers (I take it as their first skill), is that once they have Guard, you need to make a determined effort to get the Blitzers to their second skill. Once they have M-Blow (second skill), skilling up seems to take care of itself rather better.

Hope that helps.