Inexperienced Coach looking for dark elf league help

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Collywobbler
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Inexperienced Coach looking for dark elf league help

Post by Collywobbler »

Ok, so after 3 1/2 years away from tabletop, I decided to jump back into BB. I had always previously played amazons, so this time I was taken by the idea of the Dark Elves. I have signed back up to our local league, and my first 2 games in a 9 game regular season (then playoffs, which I won't be making :) ) are against Chaos Dwarves, both with similar builds.

1st game: 2 Centaurs, 6 Blockers, 3 hobgoblins, 2rr 1 ff
2nd Game: 2 Centaurs, 5 blockers, 4 hobgoblins, 3rr

My roster is : 1 Runner, 3 Blitzers, 1 Assassin, 7 lineman, 2rr. (I know I know, Assassin :D , but I love the idea of them, and this is the roster I wanted to try) Can you tell I have had zero tabletop with Dark Elves ?? HAHAHA I am sticking with this roster, so advice towards tactics would be appreciated

So for my first 2 games, figuring that the second one will be similar, with not too many changes in skills etc.... I would like some advice about how to try and play firstly the dark elves in general, and more specifically how to try and crack these first 2 games and not get devastated (1 loss and 1 draw would be awesome, a win would be amazing, but not totally important. For obvious reasons, I struggle immensely with amazons against these CD teams, so any advice to help me not get slaughtered as DE would be fantastic!! I really want to have fun in my first league back, but getting smashed to the point of having no chance in my later games isn't my idea of fun.

So, over to the community for assistance :D

I will probably try and ask for advice each couple of games, and see how it goes!!!!!

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Coach Grievous
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Re: Inexperienced Coach looking for dark elf league help

Post by Coach Grievous »

Yeah, Assassins are "meh" in general, but can be nice against AV7 Blodge teams. In your case with the Chaos Dwarves, maybe mark his Hobgoblin with him and hope for gains with the knife and Shadowing (!). I'd expect him to get pounded and fouled this way though, so who knows (at least that means that he ties up a bunch of his players and if it happens away from the position of the ball, it might be useful).

Otherwise, with Dark Elves I'd give the following advice:

1) You can score in 2 turns, but you are much more comfortable doing it in 3 or 4. To control the pacing of the game, you might even want to delay further where possible. Go for crazy winning numbers only when you manage to get a bunch defensive goals (see point 2).

2) Defensively, as with all elves, if you can reach the ball before it gets caged/protected, you're golden. This is especially true against slow teams with bad passing skills. So, always be mindful of exploiting a long kick (and for this reason, you NEED to get Kick on a Lineman fast), by harassing their ball pickup and possible forming a line between their main line and the players doing the pickups.

3) My advice is to not get crazy with passing. Yes, you're playing elves and they have Ag4, but a more rushing style of play will favor the Dark Elves, because it probably means you end up protecting your position and the ball better. Short passes to shift the ball around when it needs to move or to score TDs are okay if you have a Team Reroll in the pocket. When in panic mode, though, throw those bombs!

4) Generally I play a defensively-minded rushing offense. That means protecting the ball with an "elven forest" or skirmish formation (that means, spread around and flood the field with tacklezones) and taking a cue from from Bruce Lee to bypass the defensive line: be like water! Shift laterally, poke and flow past where the defense starts to part as they can't keep up, but don't overextend and always maintain a cohesive protection around the ball. You are not usually in a hurry, so don't worry about doing this quickly.

5) On the defense, if they have the ball in the pocket and are grinding their way towards your end zone, step your players back one square, allow one Blitz a turn and go for the column defense (as shown below). If you can force them to take a position on a sideline, do so, as it makes the column defense easier and restricts their play options. Try to burn turns and frustrate them, so that by the end of the half they have to make a mad dash for the endzone. This is when you strike and try to take the ball away.

- x - - x - - x - - x -
- x - - x - - x - - x -
- - - - - - - - - - - -

6) Oh, and always first take dodges away with those players with Dodge (in your case, none to start with). Sometimes - esp. when lacking dodge - to create that one square gap it is better to punch the opponent back with Blocks and not follow up instead of taking a risky dodge.

7) In a more abstract sense, as a key to all of the above, exploit your ability to create areas where you have situational advantage. On the totality of the field, you can have less strength and less block (and later less guard), but your agility means you can create small areas where you dominate relatively easily. As you do so, also restrict access to this area where you dominate by spreading those tackle zones between this area and the opposing line! This is the way to victory in all situations.

...

That's all that I can think of in these quick 10 mins! Hope it helps.

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Smeborg
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Re: Inexperienced Coach looking for dark elf league help

Post by Smeborg »

For the longer term, try (a) to skill up the Runner quickly (give him Leader) and (b) buy 2 Witch Elves (they are the key counter-attacking players of the team).

In the short term, do not by any means consider that you are the underdog in these matches against the CDs. CDs are weaker at the beginning while their Bull Centaurs are undeveloped (they make poor ball-carriers without Break Tackle). The Assassin (although I do not rate him in general) should be good against the Hobgoblins and may have an important psychological effect. Use your greater mobility, threaten the ball quickly on defense, don't allow the CDs to settle. Your Blitzers make much better ball carriers than the opponent's rookie Hobgoblins and Bulls. The rookie Runner is not a good ball carrier, but you need to start skilling him up with TDs or at least PCs.

Do not be afraid to swarm the CD cage at the right moment. Do not delay too long.

DEs tend to play long (and often quite wild) drives, these can be on both offense and defense. So you need to be prepared for this, it means adopting a "never say die" mentality, DEs are rarely out of the game, especially on these long drives. You should not fear being down on numbers, both teams have 11 players, you may even go up on numbers. DEs can still play when down on numbers.

Hope that helps.

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Re: Inexperienced Coach looking for dark elf league help

Post by SunDevil »

I am stealing these ideas for a DE team I just started. Fantastic stuff, Coach Grievous and smeborg!

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Collywobbler
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Re: Inexperienced Coach looking for dark elf league help

Post by Collywobbler »

Agree with Chance, thanks grievous and smeborg. Can't wait to put some of these ideas into play. I was keen to try out dark elves, and then when they won Cancon (big tourney each year in Canberra, Australia), which I think smeborg you were actually at this year (didn't get to play you unfortunately) Chance, you and drew need to try an get down here if you can, would love to show you around our capital :)

Hadn't thought at all about threatening quickly on defence, thanks smeborg for that one, and grievous for the column defence.

These comments are why I posted on here, the community is always helpful, and sometimes more personalised that general advice, which is in itself helpful. I will post up after the first 2 games how I went and for more advice on the next games.

chance , good luck with your DE's, would love to hear how you are going, aside from the podcast :D

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El_Jairo
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Re: Inexperienced Coach looking for dark elf league help

Post by El_Jairo »

That is some very good advice they give you.

I just might add the following things I learned playing DE as my main team for a long time on and off.

*Warning, wall of text incoming*

Against CD and other bashy teams, I prefer to kick first, as defending with 11 is easier than with 8. As you saw, you need 8 players to have those nice columns. They don't need to be in a straight line but can have little bends in them to discourage switching sides from the opposition or drive them back if they do want to switch sides.
I like to pressure the cage by marking the (a) back corner(s) with a blitzer (most survivable player). If they block them, the backside of the cage is bogged down. Don't over commit as you need a good defensive line to prevent them from breaking through and a safety to plug a hole or counter attack. Typically 1 or 2 players applying pressure is enough as one elf is always capable of picking the ball up in 1 TZ dodging out and passing it down the pitch. It is also great to have a lineelf within 8 squares of the opposing Endzone. If they do suffer a Turn-over and the ball gets spilled, you can make a quick conversion. I wouldn't do it with a Blitzer, as they are too busy being safeties or annoying the ball screen.

Another thing I learned was: don't dodge just because you think you can. You only have two TRR and you shouldn't use them. Only try dodging away at the end of the turn with non key players. Sometimes it is better to leave the line-fodder on the ground until you are ready to dodge them away. Simply standing them up means more punishment for them. They can fall over failing the dodge as long as this doesn't create a hole in the line. Even a small weak spot isn't a problem if you can box them in afterwards. Sometimes this is even better as Dorfs are really slow and typically can't break through a line well.

BTW, I only started to realize that when you fail a dodge, you do risk injury but don't risk handing out SPP to the opposition. So failing a dodge is a good thing and shouldn't be RR-ed at the end of a turn :D

On offence I typically struggled more, as I try rushing some guys deep in the field while holding the ball deeper out of their reach. Now I know you should be playing a more running style. If your opponent does leave his backfield wide open, you should of course place a linelf there to pose a threat as receiver. Typically one player marking him is no certainty, so the chance you can pull away 2 guys from the line are real.

Now if you need a 2TTD my tactic was to spread out about 4 players in scoring position so they can't be marked easily. And also spread out 5-6 guys around the LoS. My runner with the ball just out of reach, or difficult to mark but he should be able to hand it off to different targets on the LoS. Of course you make sure your players aren't marked a lot on the line to prevent too many knock-downs.
Then you go for the pass-hand-off combination. By first blitzing/blocking a receiver free and than you pass the ball down the field. You can be amazed how much distance you can cover with this: about 17 squares easily. So it becomes clear that the Bull Centaurs should be marked, if they are still on the pitch.
The essence is that you should provide your opponent a "catch 22". If he blitzes one of your potential receivers, the runners and the guys on the LoS are free to lend a hand breaking the line. And if he goes for the runner, the receiver will easily break lose. If you do it well, there should be enough place between the lines for elves to dodge in and lend assists. This is the creating the local superiority Grievous was talking about. You only need to clear one, preferably two players to make the move work. Even if an elf is marked by one opponent he still catches the ball on a 3+, with a RR handy this has a good chance to work. So that is why you need to save those TRR, to be handy in money-time. This is after all a risky move, it typically involves at least 3x 2+ rolls, which succeeds only 58% of the time and you haven't made any dodge, GFI or block yet! So you really need that RR as all these action will be necessary to make it work.

One final advice: prepare yourself for the Dark Elf curse (meaning that you will have games that rolling a 2+ seems as difficult as dodging to a dwarf).

The best of luck, and I'm curious how it goes.

PS: can't help it but I do advise for 4 blitzers, they are that good that you will miss them if one goes off the pitch, and know that they are only 1 skill away from Blodge, even vs CD that is great tool. I also was desperate to make the assassin work for the DE but in stats he's just a vulnerable expensive Line-elf (and they are expensive for holding the line). If you only have one, he is easily marked out of the game and sadly against his main targets: fast blodgers his shadowing isn't helping much. But vs Hobgobs, he is the ideal marking man :smoking: STAB! :orc:

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SunDevil
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Re: Inexperienced Coach looking for dark elf league help

Post by SunDevil »

Collywobbler wrote:Agree with Chance, thanks grievous and smeborg. Can't wait to put some of these ideas into play. I was keen to try out dark elves, and then when they won Cancon (big tourney each year in Canberra, Australia), which I think smeborg you were actually at this year (didn't get to play you unfortunately) Chance, you and drew need to try an get down here if you can, would love to show you around our capital :)

Hadn't thought at all about threatening quickly on defence, thanks smeborg for that one, and grievous for the column defence.

These comments are why I posted on here, the community is always helpful, and sometimes more personalised that general advice, which is in itself helpful. I will post up after the first 2 games how I went and for more advice on the next games.

chance , good luck with your DE's, would love to hear how you are going, aside from the podcast :D
We would LOVE to come down your way, hang out with smeborg and you and all the great guys down there, play in some BB tournaments - that would be great!

The DEs came into a league as a fill in team and have stuck around for a second season. So far, combined, we are 4 wins, 4 draws and 1 loss. We hope to see the playoffs this season! Team highlight is the two 5ag Witches. :)

Thread hijack OVER! :)

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This is Chance from THREE DIE BLOCK - Your Blood Bowl Podcast! Stay off the sidelines!
THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO HELPED MAKE THE SIMYIN A REALITY!!!
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