massive treasuries..

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plasmoid
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Re: massive treasuries..

Post by plasmoid »

Hi Celticgriffon,
since you asked:
Hi everyone - I had a look at Plasmoids change log. Things seem pretty clear on it except for the following:
What should the Snotling Stats be with the proposed changes?
What is the cost for a Halfling Linemen and Catcher and how many of each would be allowed?
CRP2014 is long overdue. Or rather - it was done in mid-january, I just haven't had the time to properly update the site.
But it is up now.
You can find the stats for snots etc. in this handy summary: http://www.plasmoids.dk/NTBB2014.pdf

Cheers
Martin

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Re: massive treasuries..

Post by Darkson »

Kikurasis wrote:Or, alternatively, on creation, you can burn the treasury by buying team goods and letting them go. That way, you have 0k gold in the treasure, 150k in the bank, and are worth 600k for calculating inducements (giving you 400k vs. a 1000k team).
No you couldn't, as the first time you can "fire" things from the roster is in the post-game.

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Re: massive treasuries..

Post by mattgslater »

So long as you're just firing a reroll every couple games the difference is moot. Firing before hiring only really matters if you're being dumb about it. One more thing to manage, put all the decision-making you want into it and a set of best practices will assert itself, and then it's all yawns once again.

Solution in search of a problem. Real drama exists in team development as-is: designing and maintaining your core pieces; balancing your builds; taking damage; doubles and stats; so many forks in the road, load issues, and gambits against Nuffle in any season's post-match sequences. Money doesn't play strongly into it now, and given the emerging best practices, this is unlikely to change much with Bank rules, except to punish the sudden collapse (and even then, only in a scheduled format). Yes, in contemporary BB, the conventional wisdom is to hire only MVPs and critical positionals and hoard cash until you can replace all positionals at once. But the Bank would just replace that with "hire MVPs, and positionals if it spares the cash to hire an MVP next game" which is not much of a departure at all. All it stops is sudden team rethinks/rebuilds, and to that I say, uh, nothing, because it doesn't usually go well.

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Re: massive treasuries..

Post by Cestrian »

mattgslater wrote:So long as you're just firing a reroll every couple games the difference is moot. Firing before hiring only really matters if you're being dumb about it. One more thing to manage, put all the decision-making you want into it and a set of best practices will assert itself, and then it's all yawns once again.

Solution in search of a problem. Real drama exists in team development as-is: designing and maintaining your core pieces; balancing your builds; taking damage; doubles and stats; so many forks in the road, load issues, and gambits against Nuffle in any season's post-match sequences. Money doesn't play strongly into it now, and given the emerging best practices, this is unlikely to change much with Bank rules, except to punish the sudden collapse (and even then, only in a scheduled format). Yes, in contemporary BB, the conventional wisdom is to hire only MVPs and critical positionals and hoard cash until you can replace all positionals at once. But the Bank would just replace that with "hire MVPs, and positionals if it spares the cash to hire an MVP next game" which is not much of a departure at all. All it stops is sudden team rethinks/rebuilds, and to that I say, uh, nothing, because it doesn't usually go well.
No I don't think that it's as simple as you're making out. I agree about the best practice point you make, but only up to a point. By limiting the amount of money that each team will have (unless they want to endure the TV bloat), it will necessarily increase the amount of tough decisions a coach has to make. As you point out, the bank rules punish sudden collapse, but I think they will also punish more minor setbacks too. Add into that there will always be the decision between spend and save (I can't see how it would always be sensible for teams to stay under 100k, given the reasonable possibility of losing two or more valuable players in a single game, so this is a real decision) and there is plenty to consider.

Having said that I don't think that this part of the post match sequence is as interesting as the team development part - choosing new skills and so on is certainly more exciting, I agree - but I do think it actually enhances the team development aspect. It makes each choice to spend money slightly more agonising, which I think is funner.

Of course, you do raise some excellent points and I'm not sure that the Bank rule as is should actually be introduced into the main rulebook (though it's better than the petty cash thing), but the rule is in the right direction. I used to play a lot of Football Manager and found the funnest teams to play with were the ones where money was a problem, rather than so abundant you didn't know what to do with it. Chester FC rather than Man City for me, though I know that's not for everyone.

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Re: massive treasuries..

Post by Chris »

Does change dynamic of teams as well depending on who has the best loners.

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Re: massive treasuries..

Post by crimsonsun »

I agree that a very limited bank causes rapid collapse problems for some teams, I am looking from a personal prospective but when Tomb Guardians go at high TV another Tomb Guardian and normally a couple of other players will always follow swiftly because you find yourself exposed more often and taking more hits with Decay is 100k expense incoming, with likely another 2-300 following in the next couple of matches....

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Re: massive treasuries..

Post by Viajero »

Cool discussion. And fresh!

I see a lot of personal subjectivity in all this though.

Does anyone have access to the data from the Bank Rule test that was done originally by Galak et al?

Any actual facts/figures we can get our hands around?

Also, what is the main selling point of the rule?

- Fun vs boring? (i.e. more inducements all around, more trade off decisions in team management in long term Leagues etc?)
- Balancing? How is the Bank Rule more balanced than Petty Cash? Supporting data please?
- All of the above?
- None of the above? Please state the actual reason then!

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Re: massive treasuries..

Post by plasmoid »

Hi Viajero,
I think the testing (e.g. playing) done with the rules back in the day was on such a small scale that it doesn't yield anything statistically significant. I.e. there are no numbers to look at.

Here is what happened.
1. In the pbbl rules (that later became LRB5/6) treasury was included in team value. So any Cash you had would Count towards TV. That was the system that created the Bank rule.

2. In playtest, the no-numbers, response from players such as myself was that this was needlessly harsh. The intent was that teams would not stockpile Cash - and perhaps abuse the journeyman system while doing so. However, any team saving for anything, would be punished on their in-game performance. Not only was it very harsh on developing teams, it was also in direct conflict with the goal of the new TV rules - to try to measure the teams actual power, in order to give reasonable handicaps. (This is also why the new system made MNG players no longer Count towards TV).

3. So, Bank was created, in order to let teams save up for the necessary putchases, without paying TV.
This was used in playtest, and OK'd.

4. JJ then turned Things upside Down by: nixing the bank rule for being too complicated, created the Petty Cash system, and making Cash not Count towards TV....
The obvious side-effect ofcourse being that teams could stockpile however much they wanted at no penalty. New and untested metagame situation.

...
I'll add that when pbbl was created, it was often talked about that something like TV220(0) would be the reasonable TV cap. Teams could go over for short trips, but would eventually dip back under. Remember, it was at one point in pbbl Development the rule that there would be a hard TV cap (before the creation of the spiralling expenses rule). I.e. all income would stop completely, when you went over a certain Team Value.

What was the thinking behind this? Basically that if TV goes too high, some teams benefit a lot. And generally that balance goes out the window when TV goes high enough. Again, this was intuition based on past editions, rather than hard numbers, but (AFAIK) it was felt that high TV balance was very hard to create/ensure. If you want any stats, then, with hindsight, I can show you the stats for FUMBBL Box play. At 170(0) TV the majority of teams perform either above or below the 45-55% tier 1 definition.

So, the thought was simple: prevent teams from going into too high TV.
But with Cash stockpiles, the system relying on preventing Cash flow to restrict TV doesn't really Work very well.

Cheers
Martin

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Re: massive treasuries..

Post by Viajero »

Mange Tak Plasmoid,

So, just to make sure I get it:

Premise: In scheduled long term leagues certain Races perform much better at higher TV (not taking gold into account) and unbalancedly so.
Conclusion / Premise 2: Those races will therefore hoard more cash which will in turn help them to stay up there.
Recommendation: Include gold into the TV equation so A) "poorer" teams can turn it into inducements and improve balance or B) Cash rich high performers have an incentive to get rid of cash.

The recommendation above seems to be now tweaked in that the Bank Rule would allow a certain amount (100-200K) not to count towards TV so teams can at least reasonably save for a key piece(s) or a RR etc.

Yeah?

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Re: massive treasuries..

Post by stashman »

In what way is big cashflow a problem???

In our league we have teams with 800,000 in treasuries (playing lots of games)

We use divisions so teams are TV based.

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Re: massive treasuries..

Post by swilhelm73 »

plasmoid wrote: So, the thought was simple: prevent teams from going into too high TV.
But with Cash stockpiles, the system relying on preventing Cash flow to restrict TV doesn't really Work very well.

Cheers
Martin
The interesting thing here though is that the ability to replace players isn't the cap on bash team TV growth. Yes, you can buy a new beastman or orc BOB...but as a rookie it will likely be a while until the player is actually valuable.

For hybrid teams like say Necro, I had an incredible run and ended up with like $1M in the bank, but I was still capped around 2200 because it is impossible to get many skills on FGs and Zs...

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Re: massive treasuries..

Post by stashman »

Even if my reams got loads of cash, buying a new player don't make him good.

Buying a black orc to a team around 220+ TV makes the black orc less worthy compared to a blitzer.

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Re: massive treasuries..

Post by Viajero »

stashman wrote:Even if my reams got loads of cash, buying a new player don't make him good.

Buying a black orc to a team around 220+ TV makes the black orc less worthy compared to a blitzer.
Ok, and what if you were in a league whose house rules allowed for the hiring of league retired teams pieces, already skilled up, by paying out of your treasury their corresponding TV cost (maybe adding a 30K gold extra to the normal value of the piece plus limiting these to 3 experienced hires tops per team, just so to avoid the whole thing going crazy)?

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Re: massive treasuries..

Post by stashman »

Viajero wrote:
stashman wrote:Even if my reams got loads of cash, buying a new player don't make him good.

Buying a black orc to a team around 220+ TV makes the black orc less worthy compared to a blitzer.
Ok, and what if you were in a league whose house rules allowed for the hiring of league retired teams pieces, already skilled up, by paying out of your treasury their corresponding TV cost (maybe adding a 30K gold extra to the normal value of the piece plus limiting these to 3 experienced hires tops per team, just so to avoid the whole thing going crazy)?
Thats a form of houserule, so it's a diffrent thing.

Amazon blitzer come with block/dodge for 90k. Even if the team is low on cash, its a great rookie player

Chaos warrior costs 100k, and NO skills. And a warrior in a wellbuilt team will have to do LOS work and act like a real rookie.

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Re: massive treasuries..

Post by Darkson »

stashman wrote:Thats a form of houserule, so it's a diffrent thing.
So is:
stashman wrote:We use divisions so teams are TV based.

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