Formations and Player Movement

[Nestyr]

Hi all,

I don't see this discussed very often, and there is never anything stickier about it...

I've been playing Blood Bowl for many, many years, and I have finally come to the realisation that my downfall in this game is a lack of tactics regarding formations and player movement during a drive.

I am well familiar with the rules of the game, how everything works, how many dice to roll for a block, working out the number needed to make a successful dodge, etc, but I really seem to fail when it comes to setting up on attack or defence.

I'm aware of basic set ups such as a 3-4-4 defence against fast teams, and such. However, once I've done this, I'm often at a loss as to where to go from there.

On attack, I try to send two or three players through, to give myself options as to where I can get the ball to. On defence, I try to cover gaps in my line, and send a couple of players after any strays that get through. That's about the extent of my tactics - everything else is just a response to what my opponent does, which means I am hardly ever on the offensive.

It would appear that I am not very strategic in this regard.

Does anyone have any tactics, suggestions, or other helpful comments on this? It would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,


Nestyr

[swilhelm73]

That is a big, big ask.

To pare it down a bit what team are you playing? What TV? Who are your opponents.

[Smeborg]

Nestyr - a good question. I think it is best approached as a big picture, and that you should look for a small number of general concepts that work for you.

CONCEPT EXAMPLE: One concept I use pretty much all the time is "denial of space". That is, I try to move my players in such a way as to deny my opponent access to as much of the board as possible (within reason). This works on both offense and defense, and over the course of a drive can make all the difference by crowding your opponent from where he wants to go. When I meet an opponent who does not do this, I feel I have an immediate advantage (of course he may think otherwise!).

INITIATIVE: BB is a relatively simple game from a "strategic" point of view, in so far as you rarely need to think more than 1 or 2 turns ahead. Like chess, it is a game where both coaches are seeking to gain what you might call the psychological initiative, to get the opponent to react to their moves, rather than being forced to react to his. It is also a game that breaks down into drives, each drive in itself is not (normally) overly complicated. Having a simple plan for each drive will help you to keep or gain the initiative. For example, on offense, do you want to score quickly, or do you want to make a long grinding, caging play, scoring on the last turn of the half? On defense, do you want to attack the ball aggressively at every opportunity, or are you content to delay your opponent as long as possible? There is nothing wrong in itself in reacting to your opponent, especially if he is making a mistake!

PUSHING PLAYERS FORWARD: How many players to push forward (whether on offense or defense) is largely a technical question relating to the make-up of your team and the match situation. There is usually a precise (or at least good) answer, which can vary from 0 to several. Some examples: If you are defending with (say) Khemri, then perhaps you need every player behind the ball. If (with any team) you are looking to score on the next turn (and cannot do so with the ball carrier), then pushing 1 player forward is rarely enough, since he can be taken down (as I am sure you know). If your opponent cannot possibly score (for example he has only 1 turn left in the half, and his players are out of range), then it may be appropriate to push lots of players forward. Even if you are executing a slow grind, it can be correct to push 1 or 2 players forward, in order to create a scoring threat which your opponent has to deal with, thereby facilitating the advance of your cage (also to give you a way out if your cage looks like it might get into trouble).

Hope that helps.

[Joemanji]

What you are describing (strategy rather than tactics) covers almost all of how to coach really well. If BB is "chess with dice" then the chess part is putting your pieces in the right positions, relative to each other and your opponent's pieces. But I guess you could boil it down to one word "anticipation". If you can see the positions on the board your opponent might want to occupy in his next turn, and the one after, and the one after that then you can put your guys in the way.

[sann0638]

I guess you could boil it down to one word "anticipation". If you can see the positions on the board your opponent might want to occupy in his next turn, and the one after, and the one after that then you can put your guys in the way.

Bingo. Keeping thinking this way during a game is what I find hard, sometimes.

[Joemanji]

Truth is, it is more pattern recognition than problem solving each individual turn. There are too many variables to do this in 4 minutes. But you can know what works in general and then fine tune it on case by case basis. Knowing when to snap out of that and actually play a turn from first principles is another key skill.

[Nestyr]

Hi all,

Thanks for the responses. For the record, I am reasonably confident when coaching Agility teams, but find it hard to come to grips with other teams.

I really appreciate the comments regarding board control, and anticipation, and will take these into consideration when planning and taking my turns.

At present, I'm playing a Chaos team in a private league, and lost the first game against Wood Elves 2-0, losing the biff 3-0, and failing to gain a single SPP, other than the MVP, versus the Woodie's 19 SPP.

I was happy keeping the score to 2 TDs, but am horrified and disgusted with the rest of the performance.

Keep those comments coming!

Cheers,


Nestyr

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Rookie Chaos are absolutely one of the worst teams so your result is not too bad tbh.

[Smeborg]

Agreed. You should not be discouraged, well coached WEs have a decided advantage over rookie Chaos (although they will not win every time).

Since they have no re-roll skills, Chaos need to be coached very conservatively at first, paying lots of attention to ball safety and positioning, taking all safe moves first. Since any block can lead to a turnover, failure needs to be anticipated at all times. The advantages of Chaos are raw strength (you choose when to put lots of players into contact) combined with AG3 across the board (you can surprise your opponent with aggressive ball movement when you need to).

Hope that helps.

[Smeborg]

Nestyr - another GENERAL CONCEPT that I use, especially with bash teams like Chaos, is contact. Before I begin each turn, do I want to end the turn with none, some, many or all players in contact with (standing) opposing players? For example, on my first turn of offense, I may want no players in contact. However, if I am causing (or about to cause) lots of problems for my opponent on defense, I may want lots of players in contact.

All the best.

[J_Bone]

This is a topic that has perplexed me since picking Blood Bowl back up again in the last few months. I am rapidly improving my game but my main issue is deciding on starting formations and what to commit where. It is interesting that Smeborg should mention initiative and forcing reactions rather than being the one reacting as this is something that has clicked with me very recently.

[swilhelm73]

Interestingly, I find that I am highly reactive in both my offense and defense, especially with bash teams.

I find many coaches commit to driving down a side for example way too early and then if your opponent can cut off the angle you are stuck. Even if you get through, you might then have to score immediately, which for most teams is suboptimal.

For this case, if you instead probe one side while maintaining the ability to reverse course you may have a higher degree of success in not only scoring, but controlling when you score, which is perhaps the most important thing for a coach to master after the basics...

[Smeborg]

I don't know if Nestyr and others will find this relevant, but I found a good tool a few years ago when playing a challenging team (Nurgle). I realised that I was doing badly, but I also realised that I didn't really know which parts of my game were going well or badly. So this is what I did:

For each tabletop game, while in progress (failing which immediately afterwards), I recorded in very simple table form for each drive:

- How long the drive lasted
- Whether I kicked or received
- What was the result of the drive (TD to me, no score, or TD to the opponent)

So the table for one game might look like this:

R3:+1, K5:-1
-----------------
K8:0

That would mean I received, scored in 3 turns, then kicked and my opponent scored in 5 (of my) turns, then in the second half I kicked and nobody scored.

The information was very helpful, as it enabled me over the course of half a season to identify which parts of my game were strong, and which were weak (offense or defense), or tending towards shutouts (good for defense, bad for offense). It also gave the crucial information as to whether I needed to stall more (e.g. by seeking to lengthen my offensive drives) or less. I think this type of information can be very useful to a team like early Chaos, you shouldn't take it for granted that you know the answers.

Hope that helps.

[Nestyr]

Hi all,

Again, thanks for all the responses. They are all useful. I especially like Smeborg's thoughts on recording the scores and drives for each game - something which I will try this season.

Cheers,


Nestyr

[neverworking]

At any point in time you should have some sense of goals for the game and the drive. Are you trying to win, draw or survive? Obviously you always prefer to win, but making a realistic choice among these three helps shape the rest of your tactics. Given the environment, season, standings and your opponent you may be more inclined to one and as the game unfolds you can adjust as well. From there, on the drive at hand you need to decide what you need to accomplish to achieve the goal. On offense your goal may be to score in less than X turns, take at least X turns to score, or just prevent a turnover. On defense you might need a turnover or prevent a score, but you might also be content with giving up a score provided they leave you enough time to score yourself. Clearly what would make for good play would change depending on the goal and what makes for a reasonable risk / reward situation will change.

What makes for good play will change depending on these factors and having a strong sense for the time left in the half and the capabilities of the teams will ultimately dictate a lot of your tactics.

Watching replays of games can help, especially if you're in a position to ask the coach to give you some insight into why they did certain things.