The most common mistake that most coaches make...

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mattgslater
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Re: The most common mistake that most coaches make...

Post by mattgslater »

Dice swing matches. They really do. Just not as much as the whiners would have you think. If your first 12 blocks get you 8 casualties, you're probably going to win. If every effort to pick up or catch the ball fails, you can't win the game. And this stuff does happen. I had a quarter once where I quadskulled twice (both into Cas on my guy), failed a 3+ dodge with the RR, and failed a GFI, on the first roll of every turn: nothing you can do about that except laugh. It's a mistake to blame it all on the dice, but it's also a mistake to not do the math when it says you really did get hosed, or even to note where your luck was a little weak and it really cost you (maybe an indicator of what you can do differently next time).

I like to come back to a bad FUMBBL match a couple days later and watch it again, see what I could have done differently (mistakes) and what I should just forget about and move on from (stupid dice). Sometimes they combine. Like you man-up too much and that turns into a bunch of Cas, say.

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Re: The most common mistake that most coaches make...

Post by Heff »

An extreme example of what Mat is talking about happened at my league a couple of years ago. Both coaches failed the first diceroll of each turn for the entire match. 32 dice requiring actions, 32 failures. Game was over in 20 mins, the bulk of the players only moving once (to set up again after the half).

Also in my experience the longer somebody plays the more cautious they become. Newer players tend to mistake making that 5 up pass as skill and often complain that experienced players are being "boring". In reality lots of players are pretty much risk averse. I don't blame dice, I am however frightened of them.

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Re: The most common mistake that most coaches make...

Post by Dessad »

Dice swing matches. They really do. Just not as much as the whiners would have you think. If your first 12 blocks get you 8 casualties, you're probably going to win. If every effort to pick up or catch the ball fails, you can't win the game. And this stuff does happen.
Having played this game since 1988 (2nd edition), I've seen my fair share of bad dice rolls. And you're absolutely right. Improbable streaks (whether lucky or unlucky) do happen--they're just not an "every game" occurrence as many Blood Bowl players would have you believe. Can they happen? Sure. There are even extreme cases (as Heff mentioned). But, more often than not, dice swings and/or streaks, when they happen, either happen briefly or in "fits and starts" (one or two turns at a time, say), happen for both coaches (both coaches have multiple failures), happens both ways (you have incredible streaks of GOOD luck, but you simply don't recall afterwards), or they simply don't have as significant an impact on the game as one might think--or, at least, they have a "managed" impact--because the coach in question was prepared and/or had a contingency plan. The fact that streaks happen at all is the main problem, because it allows for, and give "credence" to, badly argued rants about the dice. I despise this notion that Blood Bowl is "just a dice game"; a comment I see from time to time on gaming forums, youtube, even hear it in the local gaming store I used to frequent. It's just a catch-all phrase that throws things like skill and strategy out the window.

In all the years that I've played this game--in its various incarnations--I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've played a match that was truly an extreme comedy of errors, with the dice--in themselves--having an inordinate amount of influence over the game's outcome. Invariably, there is usually a good reason for why the dice were even thrown with such horrible probability in the first place--you just have to go back and think about it. In other words, if you note the streaks as they occur, and, more importantly, if ask yourself why the dice are even being thrown with low probability of success in the first place, you can usually find a reason (usually linked to poor decision making) that casts aside any notion that the dice are solely to blame. That's not to say that some random events (bad kick off results, etc.) don't rear their head from time to time. But keep in mind, as a coach, you should EXPECT these kinds of things to happen. The kick off table, for example, is just another chart of possible outcomes--and NOTHING on that chart is outside the realm of possibility. Just because you didn't think a pitch invasion would occur, because it has a really low likelihood of occurring, doesn't mean it won't. I think some Blood Bowl coaches play this game with the expectation that every game will go smoothly and according to some perfect, pristine plan--and it's usually these kinds of coaches (people who simply haven't embraced the full range of things that can happen in the game) who rage at the dice rolls.

Also, I think some coaches have a skewed understanding of what certain probabilities really mean. I've had matches where coaches have failed pickups on the first two or three turns, and they immediately started blaming the dice. An AG3 ghoul with no pickup skills has a 4/6 chance of picking up the ball. That's a 67% chance of success. Not 100%. Not 90%. Not 80% Not 70%. 67%. And in a tackle zone, in rain, etc., it's only worse--and yet, it's always THE DAMN DICE!!! THE DAMN DICE!!! I think that some coaches just need to adjust their expectations (and maybe position more players around the ball, instead of doing it solo). Khemri coaches, for example, rarely whine about not being able to easily pick up the ball. Why is that? It's because their expectations are set appropriately.

Maybe I just have a different outlook on the game's mechanics, which make it hard for me to sympathize with, or understand, "dice rage". I don't know. Failure has never bothered me in this game. It happens. The probabilities going into a match, a kick off, or any set of actions, never lie. Some match ups are simply going to end badly for your team. Amazon vs. Dwarf, as mentioned on page 1. Sometimes you FEEL that you simply have to make that low-success, 1-die block, to possibly (but not probably) stop a touchdown--and maybe it results in the "play of the game" (you won't remember you needed to roll that series of 4+ and 3+ dodges before the game-winning block, of course)--or, maybe your star catcher gets killed in the process. It happens. But, make no mistake, it's your choices, your decisions (or lack thereof), that cause the dice to come into play in the first place (in most cases). The dice are just there to give you a random result. Your job, as a coach, is to learn how to make better decisions, to know how to deal with failure--know how to plan for it, and make do with whatever strategies do work. And, most importantly, to do so with a critical eye and always--always--without blaming the freakin' dice. Failure happens; it even comes in streaks. It's just part of the game--a game that isn't "just a dice game".

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Re: The most common mistake that most coaches make...

Post by Pedda »

I agree and I believe that you can't get better at this game until you realize that the dice aren't to blame. It's usually you, as a coach.
If you have to do those risky plays it's because of your own errors or the better play of your opponent. They dice just show the end result and not the whole story.

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Re: The most common mistake that most coaches make...

Post by mattgslater »

Even then, I'd say it depends. If you go 11-0-1, and the one loss was memorable for how you just couldn't catch a break, your best bet, psychologically, is to laugh it off and not search for any lessons except the one that says you're not going to win them all. If you go 5-2-5, your losses probably have a lot to do with skill, team/matchup, etc. and it's time to see where you could be playing better.

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What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
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Re: The most common mistake that most coaches make...

Post by spubbbba »

Speaking of luck a common thing i hear is that the difference between a good and great coach is that great coaches will take crazy risks if the rewards are high enough.

Very often you will be in a situation where you can guarantee stop/score a TD, but it requires you to take a big risk with the first/early action. Alternatively you can do safer moves that will make things harder for your opponent but are still relying on him being lucky.

There is an understandable tendency to avoid dodging through tacklezones, it's something that takes a bit of getting used to when using/facing snotlings, but even AG3 can have a decent chance of success especially with dodge and re-rolls. 1D and -2D blocks can be pretty successful too if all you need is a push or your opponent does not have block.

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Re: The most common mistake that most coaches make...

Post by fidius »

It's amazing to me just how important "zen" is to a coach's performance. I've taken to monitoring my own reactions to dice in an effort to play with as objective and detached a perspective as possible. Specifically if I find myself saying "pffff" every time he succeeds at a dice roll, I know I'm going to lose if I don't dial it back. The most frustrating game for me right now is where I do a good job limiting the opponent's options to 1d blocks and moves (forcing passes, dodges, etc.) but they work anyway. Pretty sure the next step for me is to dial back the risk factor yet again, and stop yielding even 1d opportunities when possible.

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Re: The most common mistake that most coaches make...

Post by swilhelm73 »

spubbbba wrote:1D and -2D blocks can be pretty successful too if all you need is a push or your opponent does not have block.
Yes, and I have seen many situations over the years where someone marks his opponent all over the place....but a successful single 1D or even -2D block opens up the option for the other team to have a 2D "block party".

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Re: The most common mistake that most coaches make...

Post by El_Jairo »

swilhelm73 wrote:
spubbbba wrote:1D and -2D blocks can be pretty successful too if all you need is a push or your opponent does not have block.
Yes, and I have seen many situations over the years where someone marks his opponent all over the place....but a successful single 1D or even -2D block opens up the option for the other team to have a 2D "block party".
Over-eager marking is what I used to do wrong with my Dark Elves, combined with making too many "non-critical 2+ rolls".

So I think you should have a good reason to mark the opposing players and "I will give him the opportunity to fail a roll" isn't really enough! :D
Sure the more rolls your opponent makes, the bigger the chance for a Turn-over. But if his team has block and it can make loads of 1D and 2D blocks, the chance of him knocking your players off the pitch also increases.

So to me it seems that you have to hold back on following up and committing to any position, first evaluate, even with dwarf, orcs or any other AV9 piece. AV9 Is broken 1/6 times. And 42% of all armour breaks result in KO+. So basically if all your 11 AV9 players can be blocked, the chance is very real that one of them ends the turn off the pitch :D

God I love number crunching, it can create a clearer image of the bigger picture.
Now I understand what marking can do to a AV8 or lower team :smoking:

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Re: The most common mistake that most coaches make...

Post by Digger Goreman »

"The most common mistake that most coaches make" is assuming other formats, or tournaments, have any real/direct positive correspondence to the original table-top environment.... :-?

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Re: The most common mistake that most coaches make...

Post by mattgslater »

Well, format is important, even online. Take FUMBBL: I make management decisions in NBFL that I wouldn't make in FUMBBL Ranked, and Ranked teams don't build the same way as Blackbox teams. I think you can say the same thing about TT. An open perpetual league with 20 coaches that's been running for 5 years is very different from an 8-coach round robin that re-sets every 3 months, or a 1.1M resurrection tournament.

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What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
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Re: The most common mistake that most coaches make...

Post by Moraiwe »

Most common mistake I see is people forgetting to move the turn counter. So damn common that nobody uses the rules for forgetting to do so, which leads to more people forgetting.

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Re: The most common mistake that most coaches make...

Post by Digger Goreman »

Moraiwe wrote:Most common mistake I see is people forgetting to move the turn counter. So damn common that nobody uses the rules for forgetting to do so, which leads to more people forgetting.
ABSOFARKINLUTELY AGREED!

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Re: The most common mistake that most coaches make...

Post by Jimmy Fantastic »

Moraiwe wrote:Most common mistake I see is people forgetting to move the turn counter. So damn common that nobody uses the rules for forgetting to do so, which leads to more people forgetting.
I honestly hate this about TT tourneys. It is absolutely essential to know which turn it is and getting called for IP is the only way to make sure neither coach loses track of it. Sure, people hated getting called for IP and losing their RR/turn, but with the nerf of just gaining a RR there is no reason not to use it anymore.

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Re: The most common mistake that most coaches make...

Post by outcast »

I'm a *relatively* new coach and one of the mistakes that I find myself making, too often, is not planning adequately for failure. In the heat of the moment/excitement, I dive into the key action of a turn (pick up, dodge, blitz or whatever) without putting any measures in place for the inevitable fail.

I had a great example of this in a recent FUMBBL league game. With just one 3+ dodge (with Dodge re-roll) my ball carrier would have been away to score and win the game... so what did I do? I did the 3+ dodge of course!! Dodge failed, opponent picked up the ball, passed and scored, winning the game.

At the time, I cursed the dice - "odds were in my favour to make the dodge, blah blah blah" - BUT when I watched the game later I noticed that a 2DB elsewhere on the field would have freed up two players who could have covered the target square of the dodge and made the resultant pickup by my opponent harder.

Still, we live and learn (hopefully!) :-)

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