3 Khemri questions

[crimsonsun]

I'm completely with Sundevil on this Khemri need to maximise there only strength and play style, a Ag3 Blitz Ra does not improve this or add anything we don't already have built in, worse without sure hands Strip ball normally taken by the likes of Wardancers who can happily exploit any unfortunate kickoff events would make such a players use a ball carrier a terrible mistake that you'll only ever need to live though once to not go down that path again. More critically Blitz Ra's are your only strength access players that can move a half decent distance so the last thing your going to want to do is hide them from the action so they don't get hit, especially since you have a naturally built player for that role and my goodness its not like Throw Ra's can do anything else (they can't even do there job well).

In any progressive situation with reasonably developed teams its very rare I lose games due to Khemri ball handling especially around the pick up, its only if the ball is knocked loose and I have to make up time does it come into play more than 1/20 games. If your control and positioning is solid poor handling or even a early sacking of your ball carrier can be dealt with in most situations as long as you don't panic, as a result Ag3 on Blitz Ra's is pretty much plain bloat because honestly Ag3 still sucks balls without a boat load of skills to support it. Obviously there's no proving one way or the other but the only player I take Ag increases on in a Khemri team are the Throw Ra's anything else its wasted bloat in my mind.

[El_Jairo]

First I like to say that I only have experience of playing against Khemri so no first-hand experience.

I am surprised that people who vote against +AG on the blitz-ra only take into account ball-handling (or focus mainly on this part of AG-rolls).
As everyone agrees that the game-plan of Khemri is rather one-dimensional, I can't see why you don't want to have more options with the Blitz-ra, not as dedicated ball-carrier but as possible out.

With AG3, making that blitz with a dodge isn't going to be so desperate. Sure it's not as easy as an AG4 with dodge but if you want that, you should play elves.

That's what I do

[MattDakka]

As everyone agrees that the game-plan of Khemri is rather one-dimensional, I can't see why you don't want to have more options with the Blitz-ra, not as dedicated ball-carrier but as possible out.

Because a narrow, focussed, tailored-to-kill skill set on a Blitz-Ra is way more efficient than taking +1 AG on a Blitz-Ra.
You want to hurt opponent players as much as you can, especially the clawpombers, and you need all the hitting power you can have.
AG 3 is situational handy, nobody denies that, but you want to pick the most useful skills as soon as possible and to have 2 killer Blitz-Ras.
Guardians can be killers too but they are hampered by lack of regular access to General skills.

[crimsonsun]

[quote="MattDakka"][quote="El_Jairo"]
As everyone agrees that the game-plan of Khemri is rather one-dimensional, I can't see why you don't want to have more options with the Blitz-ra, not as dedicated ball-carrier but as possible out.
[/quote]
Because a narrow, focussed, tailored-to-kill skill set on a Blitz-Ra is way more efficient than taking +1 AG on a Blitz-Ra.
You want to hurt opponent players as much as you can, especially the clawpombers, and you need all the hitting power you can have.
AG 3 is situational handy, nobody denies that, but you want to pick the most useful skills as soon as possible and to have 2 killer Blitz-Ras.
Guardians can be killers too but they are hampered by lack of regular access to General skills.[/quote]

+1 to this, though its also worth noting that the odds of attempting that out to score will 9/10 actually give your opponent better odds than your getting to score overall, meaning your increasing your opponents chances more than your own.

[SunDevil]

I can see your point SunDevil. Khemri are the definition of having a plan A with no plan B, even more so than Nurgz. So while one option is to maximize the effectiveness of plan A, it shouldn't be hard to see the counterpoint of taking MA and AG to hopefully have at least a chance in hell when things don't go well.

That is a fair point. I do see the desire to give them other options, I just do not find it as effective as going all-in with Plan A. I also find it theme-tastic, which is big for me. AGing up a Blitz-Ra to make him average at one thing while making him less effective at his blitzing/hitting role is robbing Peter to pay Paul, so to speak. I'd rather be really, really good at one thing (high ST/Guard/MiB/control) and not great at ballhandling because A) it is SUPER theme-y and B) I like the challenge of playing them while overcoming the ballhandling issue (which is admittedly a very big issue ). Giving a few Skels or Ras 3AG bloats them, makes them so-so in one area while weakening a position of strength.

Your post is a very good one, I see the point of trying to smooth out the Khem's rough edges. I just don't prefer it.

Let me not say one way or the other is 'better', just that both options exist.

[Smeborg]

I feel I have a good understanding of everyone's views on skills for the Tomb Guardians and Blitz-Ras. I'd like to change the discussion to skills for the Skeletons and Thro-Ras.

(a) SKELLIES: Should the first Skelly to skill up take Dirty Player? Or should you wait until you have 3 Skellies with Block/Wrestle and then give Dirty Player to the 4th?

(b) SKELLIES: crimsonsun - do you take Wrestle on all Skellies as first normal skill? Why not Block, at least it keeps them standing?

(c) THRO-RAS: How important is Leader? I acknowledge that Leader is handy, but I tend to think Thro-Ras are "too important" to waste a skill on Leader (I prefer Block+Tackle on both of them in order to strengthen the defense).

(d) THRO-RAS: How important is Kick-off Return? I tend to ignore it as I plan for the first pick-up to fail.

All the best.

[Fist of Gales]

I tend to agree with your assessment on the Thro-Ras and I tried to build them that way when I played khemri. I would personally tend to take block first, then tackle and finally leader as the first skill up #3 baring any doubles/stat increases.

TL

[Jimmy Fantastic]

I can see your point SunDevil. Khemri are the definition of having a plan A with no plan B, even more so than Nurgz. So while one option is to maximize the effectiveness of plan A, it shouldn't be hard to see the counterpoint of taking MA and AG to hopefully have at least a chance in hell when things don't go well.

That is a fair point. I do see the desire to give them other options, I just do not find it as effective as going all-in with Plan A. I also find it theme-tastic, which is big for me. AGing up a Blitz-Ra to make him average at one thing while making him less effective at his blitzing/hitting role is robbing Peter to pay Paul, so to speak. I'd rather be really, really good at one thing (high ST/Guard/MiB/control) and not great at ballhandling because A) it is SUPER theme-y and B) I like the challenge of playing them while overcoming the ballhandling issue (which is admittedly a very big issue ). Giving a few Skels or Ras 3AG bloats them, makes them so-so in one area while weakening a position of strength.

Your post is a very good one, I see the point of trying to smooth out the Khem's rough edges. I just don't prefer it.

Let me not say one way or the other is 'better', just that both options exist.

A key thing to remember is that you can't choose who rolls the stat ups. You don't need to give AG to everyone but you could build a +AG Blitz Ra to be the best Khemri mans all times like this one - https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=8631270
Bear in mind that Cowhead is a great coach and has done without Throw-Ras since he had this beast ball carrier.
Here is the team currently, just won a tourney - https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&team_id=693707

[crimsonsun]

[quote="Smeborg"]I feel I have a good understanding of everyone's views on skills for the Tomb Guardians and Blitz-Ras. I'd like to change the discussion to skills for the Skeletons and Thro-Ras.

(a) SKELLIES: Should the first Skelly to skill up take Dirty Player? Or should you wait until you have 3 Skellies with Block/Wrestle and then give Dirty Player to the 4th?[/quote]

depends on your situation, early development you can go DP but in a experienced team I would normally take wrestle/block before hand.
[quote]
(b) SKELLIES: crimsonsun - do you take Wrestle on all Skellies as first normal skill? Why not Block, at least it keeps them standing?[/quote]
No I go 50/50 block wrestle (normally 3/3). I like block when playing offence and Wrestle when playing defence, Blocks always my port of call on a Guard or +strength Skeleton as well.

[quote]
(c) THRO-RAS: How important is Leader? I acknowledge that Leader is handy, but I tend to think Thro-Ras are "too important" to waste a skill on Leader (I prefer Block+Tackle on both of them in order to strengthen the defense).[/quote]
Again I think it depends on your environment as well as your play style. I don't think I've had Leader on a Throw Ra in the last couple of years, but if I was going to a table top event then it would be a no brainer. However my League teams never have more than 3 rerolls as I don't use them for anything that's not a turnover and I'm always getting better at risk assessment/priority. It's also worth noting that at High Levels Throw Ra's Rapidly run out of sensible options for skills on Non doubles/Statistic rolls. but by default I build a offensive and defensive throw ra (though the defensive plays all drives, but the offensive only comes onto the pitch when I receive). The offensive takes Block, Kick off return, Tackle, Fend. While the Defensive takes, Block, Tackle, Kick, Strip Ball, (I've experimented with wrestle here but its useless for actually running the ball).

[quote]
(d) THRO-RAS: How important is Kick-off Return? I tend to ignore it as I plan for the first pick-up to fail.

All the best.[/quote]

I do as well, in fact I only in extremely rare circumstances place more than 6 players on the LoS and never more than 5 in tackle zones to begin with leaving me the greater majority of my squad for nullifying a bad pick up. In honesty its so ingrained into my Bloodbowl psyche that when I play other teams I often find myself having to actively remember I don't need as many player in support of the ball. Yet the fact is that Blitzing Elves or Vampires can by pass even a six player net for ball protection or they can pull your team to one side then the other leaving you nightmarish positional issues or worse when they get between your front line and your deep field players (or catch the ball from there kick), Kick off return provides a extra degree of protection though its far from impervious (I remember very keenly a Dark Elf team getting 3 first half blitzes I was powerless to stop going 3-0 up at half time! Horrible game finished 3-1 in the end but those kick off's left me utterly powerless) and Khemri are all about risk management skills so its perfect really.

Below are my two cyanide League teams which have 8 and 10 seasons behind them respectively, sadly I've been losing Tomb Guardians at the rate of knots lately having lost two, two games previous in my OCC side (Star and emerging star) and having lost 3 superstars, and two level 3 Guardians on my UKBBL team within the last 15 or so games on my UKBBL team, which I've also fired another mass of bloated players from bringing my tv down from 2400K to 1900!

OCC Team just having been promoted back up into Tier 2 Division D for Season 26
[url]http://bbm.jcmag.fr/BloodBowlManager.We ... 15&lang=en[/url]
UKBBL team in Haunted Hills East Tier 3 and Struggling due to my awful player loses recently, but far from relegated yet!
[url]http://bbm.jcmag.fr/BloodBowlManager.We ... 27&lang=en[/url]

[SunDevil]

(a) SKELLIES: Should the first Skelly to skill up take Dirty Player? Or should you wait until you have 3 Skellies with Block/Wrestle and then give Dirty Player to the 4th?

I take Dirty Player first. It is Mighty Blow for the feet! Skels are so cheap that you can justify fouling most linemen, especially Dwarves and all Elves, so your offense begins with three blocks, often 3 dice and with Mighty Blow, then a foul with Dirty Player. Get that player advantage!

(b) SKELLIES: crimsonsun - do you take Wrestle on all Skellies as first normal skill? Why not Block, at least it keeps them standing?

I know this was not directed at me but I hope it is okay that I respond! I do not like Wrestle on the Skels. Fast teams (Elves, Skaven) and hybrid teams (Necro, Slann, Simyin) get value out of Wrestle Lineman because they want the space to get at the ball and then to get away with it. Khemri are not going to run away with anything and they can't afford to lay players down. It hurts their position worse than most opponents. Block is boring but it works better for the Khem plan, in my opinion.

(c) THRO-RAS: How important is Leader? I acknowledge that Leader is handy, but I tend to think Thro-Ras are "too important" to waste a skill on Leader (I prefer Block+Tackle on both of them in order to strengthen the defense).

I like Leader okay, especially in tournament play as suggested above. But for league play, it comes in third at best, probably later. Block and Tackle are pretty much always fine choices, although I do prefer one Thro-Ra to be unconventional and I'll describe him below.

(d) THRO-RAS: How important is Kick-off Return? I tend to ignore it as I plan for the first pick-up to fail.

I actually don't mind this skill second or third on a primary ballcarrying Thro-Ra. However, I can also see going without it like crimsonsun suggested. Committing more players to cover the kick will do the job. However, KoR really shines when some Kick Elf coffin corners the ball because this spreads the Khem out and they really struggle trying to cover an entire half-pitch. KoR will give you some breathing room, especially if you ALSO commit more players to covering the kick.

For my weird Thro-Ra, I found Dump-Off to be intriguing. Not first of course, or even second. But a Block, Fend, Dump-Off Thro-Ra reminds me of Star Player Ithaca Benoin. Now, before you begin shaking your computer screen, let me say that the goal here is not to ever need it and certainly not to reliably complete passes for SPPs. The point of DU on this team is to have some control over where the ball goes WHEN (not if) you get hit. There will be games (a lot) where the Khem are not removing players fast enough and they will get bogged down. Lowest AG in the game, remember? Lack of Block on the TGs also means you may not block with them sometimes, preferring to leave them holding down players. So they end up not moving with the cage. Tough teams will bog you down, Elves will simply dance away and stay in front, maddeningly out of reach except for your blitz. Eventually, the slow teams will crack your cage or the fast teams will Elf you and get a shot at the ball. Then you DU to an adjacent player for a 5+ with Pass (not good) and then catch for a 4+ (even worse). You will probably fail this. But it SHOULD leave the ball in 2 or more Khem TZs with the opposing Blitz already used. The Fend also means the blitzing player cannot follow up on the Thro-Ra and base the ball easily. Of course, you could fumble and this could go badly. But I have found it is worth having a greater chance of fumbling over there a space or two rather than right here next to whoever hit you. And if you plan ahead, you can make sure lots of Khem are in the DU area, even if only to stand around and guard the fumble.

Obviously, not getting hit in the first place is Plan A. But just in case, I think DU is fun. Your mileage may (and probably will) vary.

[Smeborg]

The league has started already. I had a solid 2-0 victory over Chaos Dwarfs last night, with a Blitz-Ra scoring both TDs to skill up (M-Blow). I confess I am unused to scoring more than 1 TD with Khemri. No other SPPs, so I gave the MVP to Tomb Guardian no.1. He did better than TG no.3 who failed a GFI, got fouled 3 times and copped -1MA (Regen failed, Decay got him).

Although I think Guard first on the TGs may well be the technically correct decision, I am going to take M-Blow first because of the high incidence of AV7 teams in our league. Of 12 teams (so far) that I face, there are:

3 Skaven
2 Norse
1 Amazon
2 Undead
1 DE
1 CD (played already)
2 as yet undeclared

For similar reasons, I expect to go: M-Blow, Tackle on both Blitz-Ras (at least 9 out of 11 teams will have AV7/Dodge players). Block, Tackle on both Thro-Ras likewise seems to recommend itself. Dirty Player on the first Skelly also has a certain charm.

All the best.

[spubbbba]

A lot of khemri teams I've seen have taken +AG on any non-guardian that gets it. AG2>3 is a huge leap if the entire team is AG2 or less as it opens up so many more options. Just basic things like picking up the ball, dodging or receiving a pass/hand off become a lot more likely.

Khemri aren't the powerhouse hitters they used to be in lrb4. With fouling having been so badly nerfed and guardians franky aren't that scary to face. I'd take +AG on a blitz-ra if no one else had it as their normal skill choices are nothing special in any case.

[Smeborg]

A lot of khemri teams I've seen have taken +AG on any non-guardian that gets it. AG2>3 is a huge leap if the entire team is AG2 or less as it opens up so many more options. Just basic things like picking up the ball, dodging or receiving a pass/hand off become a lot more likely.

Khemri aren't the powerhouse hitters they used to be in lrb4. With fouling having been so badly nerfed and guardians franky aren't that scary to face. I'd take +AG on a blitz-ra if no one else had it as their normal skill choices are nothing special in any case.

spubbbba - I see both sides of the argument, and I appreciate the clarity of focus which says leave +AG to the Thro-Ras only. I suspect it depends partly on timing. If your first skill-up after match 1 is +AG on a Blitz-Ra (when you don't even have any Thro-Ras), you can give S-Hands to the Blitz-Ra as second skill (which ought not to take long) and you can even consider dispensing with one or both Thro-Ras. As a middle skill after your Thro-Ras have become developed, +AG on a Blitz-Ra has less appeal (it blurs the focus of development of both player types). I am unsure of the value of +AG on a Skelly, bread and butter skills are in short supply for them in my experience, and MA5 on a ball l carrier does not appeal.

All the best.

[spubbbba]

A lot of khemri teams I've seen have taken +AG on any non-guardian that gets it. AG2>3 is a huge leap if the entire team is AG2 or less as it opens up so many more options. Just basic things like picking up the ball, dodging or receiving a pass/hand off become a lot more likely.

Khemri aren't the powerhouse hitters they used to be in lrb4. With fouling having been so badly nerfed and guardians franky aren't that scary to face. I'd take +AG on a blitz-ra if no one else had it as their normal skill choices are nothing special in any case.

spubbbba - I see both sides of the argument, and I appreciate the clarity of focus which says leave +AG to the Thro-Ras only. I suspect it depends partly on timing. If your first skill-up after match 1 is +AG on a Blitz-Ra (when you don't even have any Thro-Ras), you can give S-Hands to the Blitz-Ra as second skill (which ought not to take long) and you can even consider dispensing with one or both Thro-Ras. As a middle skill after your Thro-Ras have become developed, +AG on a Blitz-Ra has less appeal (it blurs the focus of development of both player types). I am unsure of the value of +AG on a Skelly, bread and butter skills are in short supply for them in my experience, and MA5 on a ball l carrier does not appeal.

All the best.

That's true, I don't think passing over the +AG is a bad choice, but taking it certainly opens up more options for the team. After all thro-ras are pretty fragile and even 2 may not always see out the game.

The other key factor is that AG3 makes him a better blitzer, I see them as both killers and hunters, so tackle and even strip ball might be worthwhile. The other Blitzer can always become the dedicated killer. Beyond Guard, MB, tackle and PO I don't think there are that many great normal choices.

I am primarily an undead player and I like having 4 ghouls along with the wights as it gives me options late game if I come off badly in the bash war. Though their lack of regen means it's also good to have them ready to skill up when your main ball carrier is killed.

[MattDakka]

(a) SKELLIES: Should the first Skelly to skill up take Dirty Player? Or should you wait until you have 3 Skellies with Block/Wrestle and then give Dirty Player to the 4th?

Since Khemri team lacks block reliability, I like to have 3 skellies with Block/Wrestle and then give Dirty Player to the 4th

(b) SKELLIES: crimsonsun - do you take Wrestle on all Skellies as first normal skill? Why not Block, at least it keeps them standing?

If you play in a League you should tailor the skellies according to your opponents, so if you are going to face a lot of Block spam team such as Norse, Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs then Wrestle is better, otherwise Block is generally betterbecause standing skeletons don't waste squares of movement to get up, can use Both Down vs Blockless players and exert tackle zones.
Wrestle is useful as soft counter for Blodgers as well, so if you are going to face a lot of Blodge Wrestle is better as first skill.

(c) THRO-RAS: How important is Leader? I acknowledge that Leader is handy, but I tend to think Thro-Ras are "too important" to waste a skill on Leader (I prefer Block+Tackle on both of them in order to strengthen the defense).

Khemri reroll are too expensive (70k is a lot! for a low agility team with very few starting skills) so you need to control the TV by taking Leader on the Thro-Ra. In my opinion the best 4 nora skills for Thro-Ra are Block, Leader, Kick Off Return, Tackle in this order.

(d) THRO-RAS: How important is Kick-off Return? I tend to ignore it as I plan for the first pick-up to fail.

Kick Off is a core skill for the Thro-Ra because moving 3 squares means you can try to get the ball even before it touches the ground, and if you should fail that, you are going to be very close or adjacent to the landed ball.
Khemri is a slow cumbersome team which absolutely needs to pick up the ball as soon as possible in order to protect the Thro-Ra and starting to move to the opponent's end zone.
Passing is not a viable option so you need to gain extra movement with the Thro-Ra, or simply secure the ball in bad scenarios such as Blitz! and Pitch Invasion.