How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Want to know how to beat your opponents, then get advice, or give advice here.

Moderators: Valen, TFF Mods

Post Reply
MattDakka
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:36 pm
Location: Italy

Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Post by MattDakka »

swilhelm73 wrote: And honestly if that CLPOMB team comes and knocks hundreds of TV off your team in an open match making league...who cares? You'll just draw a lower TV team as your next opponent.
Yes, who cares if you spend 1 hour watching your clawpomb-spamming opponent playing alone while you can't do anything due to lack of players, it's so entertaining and fun.

Reason: ''
Image
harvestmouse
Star Player
Star Player
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:21 pm

Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Post by harvestmouse »

swilhelm73 wrote: Currently I play mostly in a league that is on its 15th season. There are a few legendary players in the league, but they die like any other player eventually. The highest TV in the league, remember after 15 seasons, is 2250...on a lizard team that has played 5 seasons IIRC. All teams eventually plateau, though usually where they plateau is a measure of the skill of the coach (and obviously the race too).
Well yes, you are in a micro managed environment. Things are different for League. What's more I don't think TT has the same 'pushing the boundaries of the mechanics' that online has. Simply the amount of games that teams can play online is huge. The more games you play, the more you can tailor your team. The more you get to choose who you play, the more you can do that further.
swilhelm73 wrote: At least in a league with good coaches, they will keep each other's teams in check. Open style formats are different but frankly, that's why league play is clearly superior. And honestly if that CLPOMB team comes and knocks hundreds of TV off your team in an open match making league...who cares? You'll just draw a lower TV team as your next opponent. We should not be breaking league play to try and fix open formats - we don't need skill changes or aging. Especially not aging.
Of course the online environments (all of them) do have very good coaches, exceptional coaches. So of course does TT. The more coaches you have playing in one environment, the logic dictates that the more good or excellent coaches you'll have. With an online environment (or a tourney environment) matches can be watched, but particularly replays online. Which suggests bringing on coaches more quickly than anywhere else.

League is great, I agree in that for me it is also the best format. But it isn't for everybody. Also League has some major draw backs. 1. It limits the amount of games that can be played with that team. 2. You have to be available for an organised match. 3. The smaller the pool of teams, the bigger the disparity in strength (in a divisional format). 4. Dedication, simply taking part in a closed League takes dedication, especially over 15 seasons.

So Open format is better than League for these reasons. There is of course mid-way houses like Open format divisions (you play who is available) and ladder divisions, but again there are problems with any format.

This is all by the by though. Online has some exceptional leagues, some really really damn fine leagues and although not as bad as the Open divisions, I think any format of the game that is perpetual AND uses TV, would benefit from aging.

So if they are different, we go back to previous topics, using the same match making formula is counter productive. Leagues with enough teams, do not need TV to handicap (you have divisional standings or simply divisions if enough teams) so there's no need for TV and less need for aging.

I'll still stand-by it being beneficial though, however there could be other answers to do the same thing without aging. My point is though, that most people hate aging because. A. They read about it. B. They think of aging as in the LRB era which wasn't handled very well. Niggles adding to TR and aging on skills 1 and 2 were ridiculous.

I think LRB niggle (as to the current one) without niggling out adding to TV would be interesting. Also decay maybe. Also possibly 'some' perms decreasing a players value. MA for instance pretty much always decreases a players value, same possibly for AV. Anyway before aging could be brought back, I think we should look at why in the super competitive environments do most perms result in retirement. And that comes down to the old bug bear 'TV'. So fix that first, then see what we have. Still it's all theory anyway....

Reason: ''
dode74
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie
Posts: 2565
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:55 pm
Location: Near Reading, UK

Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Post by dode74 »

This is not complex. It's summed up in the page on house rules in CRP/LRB6:
Not every league will find the same set-up as enjoyable as another league. The League Commissioner’s role is to find the best match of rules for the coaches in his league.
In short, if your format is not working with the rules as laid out then change something. If the format is more important then change the rules, while if the rules are more important then change the format. The problem comes when people want their rules to be in line with the official rules but are unwilling to change the format for whatever reason. People then start complaining that the rules are broken even though they were not necessarily designed to be played under that format.
It's like complaining your river barge is broken because you can't cross the Atlantic in it. If you want to cross the Atlantic then you're going to need a bigger boat!
Image

If it's not broken then don't fix it, but if it is then do, and don't be afraid to do so.

Reason: ''
swilhelm73
Star Player
Star Player
Posts: 750
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:57 pm

Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Post by swilhelm73 »

MattDakka wrote:
swilhelm73 wrote: And honestly if that CLPOMB team comes and knocks hundreds of TV off your team in an open match making league...who cares? You'll just draw a lower TV team as your next opponent.
Yes, who cares if you spend 1 hour watching your clawpomb-spamming opponent playing alone while you can't do anything due to lack of players, it's so entertaining and fun.
I've played against many clawpomb-spamming teams. It is rare, though it has happened, that I've been in the position where "I couldn't do anything" in return. The same could be said of playing against elves that can't roll ones, or undead/khemri teams that never roll doubles on a foul roll. Some games just go like that due to the die rolls, sometimes you get out coached, and some times you just have a bad match up.

But rather then breaking leagues to try and change the open format, play an agile team and laugh as you win. Play a foul focused team and laugh as you kill 'em back. Build you own clawpomber. Or better yet play in a league.
harvestmouse wrote:The more games you play, the more you can tailor your team. The more you get to choose who you play, the more you can do that further.
Yeah, that's why I don't have a problem with changing the challenge rules any particular open format league uses, but I do have a problem with changing the underlying game mechanics [hmm, that dode guy seems to mention this too... :D ]

Here is what I think the actual problem is...

People get enjoyment in the game in "doing something" to borrow Matt's construction. If I play an agile team, doing something means scoring...and if I am successful probably winning. If I play a bash team it could mean scoring OR inflicting casualties, the latter which could come in a loss. Agile teams are flat out better at winning...but when they don't win the game they didn't get to "do anything". Bash teams almost always get to "do something".

Now in a league, winning *really* matters. Almost everyone starts the league wanting to win the title. A few seasons ago, I was running a Chaos Dwarf team. The star of my team was a blodge, +AG, SS, SH BC (the league mvp). I ended up with the title that year, but in my playoff run I took a strength break on that player (having to cut him), an armor break on my best dwarf, a strength break on my next best dwarf, and a move break on my mino. But you know what...I don't care that my team got trashed...because I won the title. 8)

In an open format if you win a string of games does it matter? Err...not really all that much. If you took those injuries in a few games is it "fun"? Maybe not. But that is the limitation of the format.

Reason: ''
harvestmouse
Star Player
Star Player
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:21 pm

Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Post by harvestmouse »

Well ok, I'll be direct. I think aging (as a mechanic, not as in what we used to have) would suit both open and league. However, let's say handicapping was changed. I.e. not handicapping on TV, then I'd definitely not advocate adding aging until we saw the long term consequences. Things like this need to be handled softly softly.

However, right now, in my opinion League/Open format makes little difference. Aging would benefit team building, rather than star building in anything where skills are gained. Which again in my opinion, is much better for the game. Find another way of doing this, outside of aging..yeah fine. I'm not such an aging fan that I want it back, I never liked it back in LRB 4. I just want back what it did to team building. And that is of benefit to League and/or Open.

Reason: ''
harvestmouse
Star Player
Star Player
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:21 pm

Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Post by harvestmouse »

Bit off topic and not a CPOMB fix for sure, but how about this in theory for aging. Skills 1 and 2 you cannot age. From skill 3 onwards you must roll an aging D6. Skill 3 is a fail on a 6, skill 4 on a 5 & 6, upto skill 7 fails on a 2-6.

A failed roll results in the injury aging. Each time the player is injured roll on the injury table twice. The worse of the 2 injuries is applied. So it's similar to decay. For each aging fail on skill rolls, requires an extra roll on the injury table each time this player's armour is broken. So if you have a 6 skill player, and he's aged 3 times then he'd roll on the injury table 3 times and take only the worst result.

For each time the player ages, 10k is deducted from the players worth. Hopefully with this 2 things happen. 1. in most cases the injury table retires him, not the fact that he's got a perm. 2. in some cases the aging does actually retire him as the coach believes he's not worth the investment.

Mind you, it's surprised me how debilitating coaches feel the new niggle is. So maybe it would still be a case of 'perm auto-retire' with this aging mechanic, in which case it hasn't worked.

Reason: ''
Smeborg
Legend
Legend
Posts: 3544
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:02 am
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Post by Smeborg »

Ageing was a clumsy mechanic, and a poor one IMO. I witnessed a rookie coach who lost his first player to skill up. I don't think he played the game again.

A much better idea IMO was Appearance Fees. But (like some other good ideas of JJ) it was quite poorly implemented (fees set at the wrong level, etc.). But the underlying idea of somehow increasing the price of multi-skilled players seems valid to me.

Hope that helps.

Reason: ''
Smeborg the Fleshless
Smeborg
Legend
Legend
Posts: 3544
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:02 am
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Post by Smeborg »

MattDakka wrote:This would penalize teams with few or no starting skills like Slann, Khemri and Chaos Pact.
A Slann starting 11 comes with at least 26 skills. The Slann best eleven has 35 starting skills.

A Khemri best 11 starts with 20 skills (not including nega-traits).

Pact have fewer starting skills, about 13.

By comparison, Humans without Catchers and Ogre, or Orcs without Troll and Gobbo, both start with 8 skills.

Hope that helps.

Reason: ''
Smeborg the Fleshless
User avatar
mattgslater
King of Comedy
Posts: 7758
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:18 pm
Location: Far to the west, across the great desert, in the fabled Land of Comedy

Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Post by mattgslater »

I think he means "good" skills, like Block and Dodge and stuff.

Reason: ''
What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
MattDakka
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:36 pm
Location: Italy

Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Post by MattDakka »

swilhelm73 wrote: I've played against many clawpomb-spamming teams. It is rare, though it has happened, that I've been in the position where "I couldn't do anything" in return. The same could be said of playing against elves that can't roll ones, or undead/khemri teams that never roll doubles on a foul roll. Some games just go like that due to the die rolls, sometimes you get out coached, and some times you just have a bad match up.

But rather then breaking leagues to try and change the open format, play an agile team and laugh as you win. Play a foul focused team and laugh as you kill 'em back. Build you own clawpomber. Or better yet play in a league.
The difference is that elves not rolling 1s at least let you some options to try and some players to move, unlike being outcas by a bash team, and given that in Black Box coaches like to play clawpomb teams this kind of unpleasant experience happens too often and after a while it's boring, regardless of the result.

Oh really, I should play an agile team? Well, thanks for the suggestion but I already play agile teams, I play any kind of team in Black Box actually, but I think that forcing coaches to play agile teams or clawpomb teams to cope with the current clawpomb metagame is bad and dull. I play in a league as well but a league can't provide you a match whenever you want.

Speaking is easy... I'd like to watch you playing match after match vs clawpomb teams in Black Box, too bad you don't play anymore on FUMBBL.



mattgslater wrote:I think he means "good" skills, like Block and Dodge and stuff.
Exactly, solid core skills like Block, Dodge, Tackle, Sure Hands etc., not gimmick skills.
I thought it was clear enough.

Reason: ''
Image
swilhelm73
Star Player
Star Player
Posts: 750
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:57 pm

Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Post by swilhelm73 »

MattDakka wrote:The difference is that elves not rolling 1s at least let you some options to try and some players to move, unlike being outcas by a bash team, and given that in Black Box coaches like to play clawpomb teams this kind of unpleasant experience happens too often and after a while it's boring, regardless of the result.
Oh come on now, I've played any number of unpleasant matches - against agile/chaosy/non-chaosy teams. Against the latter two that might mean your team is losing non-trivial TV, which matters in a league, but not in an open format. In the terms of an open league they are all equally unpleasant...
MattDakka wrote:
Oh really, I should play an agile team? Well, thanks for the suggestion but I already play agile teams, I play any kind of team in Black Box actually, but I think that forcing coaches to play agile teams or clawpomb teams to cope with the current clawpomb metagame is bad and dull.
There is generally a rock-paper-scissors of agile/chaosy/non-chaosy teams. But if people don't play the agile teams in open formats it breaks the natural balance of the game. I already went into some detail as to why that is...but it isn't really related to CLPOMB, and you can't "fix" the problem common in open formats by weakening the non-fouling damage skills. If you have a problem in the format, fix the format.
MattDakka wrote: I play in a league as well but a league can't provide you a match whenever you want. Speaking is easy... I'd like to watch you playing match after match vs clawpomb teams in Black Box, too bad you don't play anymore on FUMBBL.
I played on FUMBBL in the open format, back when the game was more deadly then now. I also played for a while in LRB 5.0 in Cyanide's open league. The latter was really just getting back into the game after years away as open format in either Cyanide or FUMBBL inherently gets old because there is nothing to play for and you don't get to build a rapport with good coaches (as is the case in my league and presumably yours).

Reason: ''
harvestmouse
Star Player
Star Player
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:21 pm

Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Post by harvestmouse »

swilhelm73 wrote: Oh come on now, I've played any number of unpleasant matches - against agile/chaosy/non-chaosy teams. Against the latter two that might mean your team is losing non-trivial TV, which matters in a league, but not in an open format. In the terms of an open league they are all equally unpleasant...
Honestly, I think you're a little deluded. If one of these CPOMB teams roll's good (not even exceptional) dice for half a half, there is absolutely nothing you can do. They are broken, it's as simple as that. I think from some of the comments you've made you're a little naive about the big lakes out there.....sorry. However, I do think you have some valid points. If FUMBBL is broken, they should get their house in order, not demand you to change your league when it's working very well. And that a balanced team with CPOMB isn't actually as bad as people make out. I think it's true that the hype behind it, is a bit much. However is it a broken combo? Categorically yes.
swilhelm73 wrote:There is generally a rock-paper-scissors of agile/chaosy/non-chaosy teams. But if people don't play the agile teams in open formats it breaks the natural balance of the game. I already went into some detail as to why that is...but it isn't really related to CLPOMB, and you can't "fix" the problem common in open formats by weakening the non-fouling damage skills. If you have a problem in the format, fix the format.
I'm a firm believe in Rock/Paper/Scissors. I do think the open environments should to some degree enforce this. However the idea is another 'marmite'. You love it or hate it. So, I have to accept it's a bad idea. Furthermore, it doesn't work as well in CRP as it did in the earlier LRBs. As an example SWL (Australasia league of FUMBBL) dropped it, personally I don't think they should have. However WIL (British/European league of FUMBBL) kept it.

However it is related to CPOMB, it's not the format. Leagues suffer from it too. Weakening this combo (or just POMB actually) is necessary, and would happen I'm pretty sure if we had an update. I also think it's up to the playerbase to play in a responsible way. Something the online environments are failing at badly. A CPOMB fix was offered on FUMBBL, and it was turned down due to wanting to stick to the official rules. I can see both points of view on this, it's difficult.

I do think that the attrition rate is fine with CRP. The problem is that it's biased to one combo; POMB. If you haven't got a reliable POMB blitzer, then you're lose the cas war, as simple as. We need to take a bit off of POMBING, and add a bit somewhere else, as I mentioned before probably fouling a tad more, but not as much as previous versions. Again as I said before, I'd like to keep CPOMB though, for special cas causing creatures. That being ST5 and Khorne (if we have to have Khorne). This gives chaos a bit more punch, which is necessary. At the moment though, Dwarfs and Orcs really can't cope against Chaos. It's almost a Stunty/Dorf match up at high TV.
swilhelm73 wrote: I played on FUMBBL in the open format, back when the game was more deadly then now. I also played for a while in LRB 5.0 in Cyanide's open league. The latter was really just getting back into the game after years away as open format in either Cyanide or FUMBBL inherently gets old because there is nothing to play for and you don't get to build a rapport with good coaches (as is the case in my league and presumably yours).
Your league really does sound cool. Having a 15 season plus reliable TT league is a dream for most players. The fact you have good players that also play responsibly is a credit to the game. I think one thing I'd like to get across here, is that we really shouldn't have a 'them and us' (I'm not saying you have) attitude. Without TT, there is no online environment. However online offers an awful lot. Ok, you don't have the face to face relationship online, however you do have much more than you think.

You do build a rapport with coaches, and you meet so many more coaches there than you could do unless you were doing an extremely large tourney scene. There also is a hell of a lot to play for. Yes, yes I totally agree that the 'tread water, getting nowhere' open scene is a bit dry. But that's a drop in the ocean.

Cyanide and FUMBBL have Majors and Minors for the open divisions. This is what motivates a lot of the best coaches. They tune their teams, to face the best in the world over winning cups. The Majors are really a big thing for the onliners, and worth looking into.

Furthermore there goals and 'meta groups'. The coaches of FUMBBL have made achievement badges that you get if you manage to do something in a game. Win 5-0, complete a mummy to mummy pass, get spp in every category in a game for instance.

We also have records for everything. The best passing zombie, the best blitzing wardancer, the highest fouling troll etc etc. Another thing that motivates people.

There is the artistic side too. Pitch images, player images, custom icons, writing the bios, coding the bios. Ok, it's not as good as converting and painting your own team. However the sense of pride is similar.

So that's the open environment. It has it's problems in both major formats (Cyanide and FUMBBL), but it has a lot to offer too. The League division though is massive. Themed leagues, Open leagues, National leagues, Continental leagues....you name it.

It's a little sad that you feel there's nothing to play for online. There's masses there once you peel away the layers of an onion. If you get your full fix from your TT group, that's cool. Don't change it, however picking a goal and going for it online is so easy......I'm not sure why more don't. Especially if you want to try something out before purchasing the figures.

Reason: ''
darkrock76
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:30 pm

Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Post by darkrock76 »

I always like the idea of a player who uses Piling on and has claws, has a 1 in 6 chance when piling on of landing on his claws and injuring himself. Possibly adding MB to the injury roll if the player has that as well. Seems like a fun rule and doesn't globally change the game like aging or nerfing claws AV damage.

It would also be nice to see these CPOMB'ers kill themselves :D

Reason: ''
dode74
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie
Posts: 2565
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:55 pm
Location: Near Reading, UK

Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Post by dode74 »

Something like "if the PO reroll is a double the player considered to have carried out an illegal procedure and a turnover is awarded" would add a downside to it, and could also help limit the number of POs used per turn.

Reason: ''
stashman
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:12 am

Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:

Post by stashman »

Plasmoids CRP+ is the key!!!!

Reason: ''
Post Reply