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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:15 pm 
Legend
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I am inclined to agree with crimsonsun's semi-rant.

There are bigger things to look at than ClawPoMb/TacklePoMb. For example:

- Fix the format (and culture) of a league before blaming things on the rules. If coaches are not playing to win, that is not a problem of the rules.

- In long/"perpetual" formats, to what extent is the game dominated by multi-skilled players (e.g. with 4-6 skils)? It is easy for AG4 players and ClawPoMb/TacklePoMb players to reach this level, very hard for dull players such as Skellies, Zombies, Tomb Guardians, Black Orcs etc. to get there. That's why earlier in this thread I suggested the introduction of a Multi-Skill Premium (MSP). JJ himself perceived the problem as he came up with Appearance Fees (terrible execution, though).

Personally I detest Ageing, let the players die through the "natural" mechanics of the game.

As for Piling On, I would love to see 2 things: (a) a restoration of the link between Strength and Piling On (not necessarily in the old form), so that Ogres are better at P-On than Black Orcs, and Black Orcs are better than at P-On than Dwarfs, , and (b) a reversion to the "penalty" of having to decide to Pile On before rolling for Armour. But those are just my personal preferences, no doubt we could argue about these things until the sun goes down.

Hope that helps and all the best.

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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:53 pm 
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harvestmouse wrote:
1. Not at high TV. It's not necessarily how much they win, it's the damage done from one source. In abundance it's a negative environment. It's also a high coin toss environment.


But again, that is the point. If high TV Chaos teams beat up agile teams in an open environment, but lose in the process they are already not overpowered...since they lose. Yes, they will damage the agile teams who will then...draw lower TV opponents.

What is the point of an open league? Is it to win? To infinitely build (but not rebuild) your team? To prepare a team to join a scheduled league? Etc? Once you identify the reason(s) for a particular open league then a solution might because more obvious...and I think generally in the format of the open league.

We, for example, have an open league that is mostly a way to build a team to enter a more established league. Since the match making is done verbally (over a teamspeak server), people have the option of not taking options they don't want. So you can ask the coach with the TV1000 Zon team to play your TV1000 Dwarf team...but he is likely going to say no and make fun of you in the process. :)

harvestmouse wrote:
Social interactions make TT groups much easier to control. Damaging the group is damaging yourself. It's much easier to see. However playing against strangers or online is totally different and individuals do not look at the group or game as a whole.


Not sure why you think my league is TT...my primary league currently is a cyanide one (though I have played TT before). People are focused on winning for the most part...and building a team that can only kill is not usually a good recipe for that so it is nicely self policing.

harvestmouse wrote:
3. Orcs should be more common, but are not more common at high TV. At high TV Orcs do very badly against Chaos.


Yes, this is part of the rock-paper-sissors in how the game is supposed to work. High TV Orcs should have problems against High TV Chaos. But at least in my league there are a number of people that play them anyway, and have done well with them even with High TV Chaos teams around. Orcs haven't been incredibly successful with only one title so far...but it beats the number of chaos titles (0).

harvestmouse wrote:
4. What would be ideal is to decrease the potency of that combo and increase the potency of another way of damaging players. Fouling appears to be the obvious choice. This means that teams and results would be less 1 dimensional. And that teams could focus on different ways of removing players from the field.


I'm not necessarily opposed to improving fouling, but I will point out that in earlier versions of the rules were fouling was more effective that games often descended into fouling wars and people complained about that too.


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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:19 pm 
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MattDakka wrote:
The below average winning percentage can be due to:
1) A lot of bad coaches play clawpomb teams because they can't play complex tactics, thus clawpomb becomes the path of least resistance to win, but they can't play it well enough to win. This doesn't mean that in the hand of average or better coaches clawpomb is not a problem.
2) Since clawpomb teams are very popular mirror matches are common, and every time a mirror match happens the win rate goes to 50%.


That is...conjecture. If one's argument is that a skill combo that is somewhat limited is overpowered, and the data says those teams that can take the combination in fact do poorly I think you would need evidence that the coaches that choose those teams are worse on average then other team's coaches and #2 is...interesting since chaos is below 50%. :)

I did find that playing elves is simply the easiest way to win - they tend to be very forgiving of mistakes and are very difficult to stop from scoring when they have the ball. In one match I remember having my poor orc opponent tied with 2 turns to go kicking to me. It would have taken bad luck on my part to not have converted the opportunity since I only needed a couple of 2+ actions to score no matter what he did...

I did have an interesting opponent in my division last year who had a mb/PO high elf blitzer. He did pretty well (though he is a good coach anyway). It was interesting seeing an elf team with an additional threat type, though frankly the agility/dodge/etc was more important to his team then that blitzer.

MattDakka wrote:

First play a lot of high TV matchmaking, then talk.


Actually this is rather exactly the wrong tack. If you are talking about changing the rules of the game to address an open/match making league issue the implications have to be considered to all types of play.

MattDakka wrote:
Anyway, winning % doesn't tell the whole story, the simple fact you could spend 1 hour by playing vs a boring clawpomb spammer without enough players to move and try something is what should encourage a clawpomb nerf.


If you want to nerf an already weak team, then you are going to have to propose a way to nerf the teams that are currently strong. Which is as I pointed out silly. If your format doesn't have people focused on winning, which is the primary point of the game, the problem is with your format.

I also have to say that playing a bash on bash match is usually more interesting then agile on agile. I'd rather the match come down to positional play (the former) and not who rolls the most ones (the latter).

And if we really want to take about cheese can we address one turners? There is nothing less fun that playing a solid 8 turns to lose/tie because your opponent can make a handful of easy rolls. Currently the only way to stop a natural one turner is to injure enough players to force him to play defense and then injure him...


MattDakka wrote:
A smart Ageing could bring enough attrition to Orcs and Dwarfs and it would work without need of assigning the task of attrition-dealers to clawpomb teams, like in CRP.


Aging, in any form I can imagine is a terrible solution, taking more strategic options away from the coach and making another part of the game luck based - and that's presuming you can find a way to balance it so it handles both fast and slow SPP earning players in a reasonable way.


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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:39 pm 
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plasmoid wrote:

Well, at low Team Value, where they haven't developed their CPOMB (or indeed any other basic skills) they do suck pretty bad. So if you do the math on lifetime performance, you're not gonna get very good results.


But one of the elements of team balance is that some are better in various TV bands. I would expect that chaos would be strong at high TV because of high base stats and good skill access but I'm not really seeing that.

plasmoid wrote:
Perhaps. Unless you want to do something for the teams that aren't elfs.


I don't have the stats in front of my now, but I believe Lizards and Undead were both near the top in win % in BBM.

plasmoid wrote:
Another possibility is that in this meta, skill selection is largely about survival, because otherwize your team will get torn apart. Now, elfs were all about survival skills anyway. But more importantly, if everyone else pick lots of survival skills, then they will not be picking the kind of skills that make life harsh for elfs. Like back in the day where there was room for Tackle - or Diving Tackle on bold doubles.
Maybe if the meta (i.e. CPOMB) changes, then elf hunting skills can come back in style.


In one of the other leagues I played in (not the one real long lived one I have referenced in most of these discussions) the top three teams were a dwarven, a dark elf, and my Chaos team (though there was a good overall racial mix). I found the fact I had to skill against very different opponents affected my choices significantly. But again my focus here was to win games and ultimately titles. If I didn't care about winning then I could have thrown CLPOMB on everyone of course. :)

If teams are focused on killing their opponents instead of winning that indicates a problem with the format...

plasmoid wrote:
I must admit that if I had control of the CRP+ as well as a large online League at my fingertips just to see what happens, I'd be very interested in seeing how a nerf to Claw, Piling On and Dodge would pan out.
But I don't.


There certainly are tiers of skills - though if you are looking at weakening the top ones I don't think I would include Claw or Piling on. The skills most commonly taken are IMO Block, Guard, MB, Dodge...


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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:48 pm 
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Smeborg wrote:

- Fix the format (and culture) of a league before blaming things on the rules. If coaches are not playing to win, that is not a problem of the rules.


I want to highlight this right here by the way. It does seem that this is an emerging theme and if accurate does seem to present a deeper issue then the skill/race selection in the format.

I addressed that at one point in the thread earlier. If winning isn't the goal of your fellow coaches then you are going to see odd behavior in your league/division/whatever.

As a more amusing example, I had a league where a high elf coach said he was going to set the passing record for our league - a reasonable goal for an HE team. And he was doing it while trying to win (I think he made the playoffs).

Meanwhile a Khemri coach with a Hail Mary Throw Ra decided HE was going to win the passing title because in the Cyanide client passing yards don't require you to catch the ball (good job there guys).

Now the people that played against him got more of a comical affect then claw to the face but it still led to odd matches and distorted his division (the Khemri coach did not do well). If a large number of coaches did something similar it would also lead to problems and the league admins would have to address it and not say just nerf Hail Mary...


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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:33 pm 
Legend
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One thing to consider is the meta-gaming aspect of high TV random matched online play. Elves do well in these environments as they are rare, meaning many teams do not build to deal with them. Claw is largely useless vs wood or pro elves, with tackle, tentacles or diving tackle being a lot more effective. Chaos can build some very nasty players that can deal with agile or hybrid teams, but if they are rarely faced then it is sensible to tailor the team to take on the high AV bash you will face in most games.

As has been pointed out there is no real point or end to it. On FUMBBL you can play in tournaments with the team, but for normal play there is no real penalty for losing. You team can't get relegated or miss out on being the season champion.

The anonymous nature does also allow you to play just to wreck other teams and care little if at all about winning the game. That is why the combo gets so much attention, if you thrash the team 4-0 but lose lots of good players it can take many games to get back up to that TV. Those games tend to be very dull as well, since the sole decision your opponent is making is which player he will blitz, PO and maybe foul each turn.
Another issue is that most killer chaos/nurgle coaches are not very good at the game. They also tend to be cowards and whiners so if they are on the receiving end of a kicking will often give up or complain bitterly throughout the game. On Cyanide they can just concede to protect themselves, but even on FUMBBL it is not that hard to protect your few star players.

I would still like to see the Blackbox division be got rid of and a scheduler added to Ranked on FUMBBL. Have some sort of incentive to use the scheduler such as it being the only way to gain CR or a monthly championship based on it.

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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:14 pm 
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Quote:
Another issue is that most killer chaos/nurgle coaches are not very good at the game. They also tend to be cowards and whiners so if they are on the receiving end of a kicking will often give up or complain bitterly throughout the game.
While I agree with a lot of what you are saying the above is baseless. Particularly the "most" part.


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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:24 pm 
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dode74 wrote:
Quote:
Another issue is that most killer chaos/nurgle coaches are not very good at the game. They also tend to be cowards and whiners so if they are on the receiving end of a kicking will often give up or complain bitterly throughout the game.
While I agree with a lot of what you are saying the above is baseless. Particularly the "most" part.


To be fair if he left out "killer chaos/nurgle" that statement would be pretty accurate :D

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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:06 pm 
Legend
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Hi Swilhelm (and perhaps to some extent Crimsonsun),

Swilhelm said:
Quote:
I'm not necessarily opposed to improving fouling, but I will point out that in earlier versions of the rules were fouling was more effective that games often descended into fouling wars and people complained about that too.

To my mind, the problem with old fouling (+2/+2 DP, rerolls available on armor/injury rolls) is a lot of the same thing that is wrong with CPOMB teams. They cause(d) the coaches to play something other than BB. Back in the day, first half wasn't about scoring TDs, taking the ball or defending hard. It was about avoiding the DP, outmaneuvering the DP, while defending your own DP and maximizing the fouls from your own DP(s). It didn't play like BB at all.

Cheers
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:18 pm 
Legend
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plasmoid wrote:
Hi Swilhelm (and perhaps to some extent Crimsonsun),

Swilhelm said:
Quote:
I'm not necessarily opposed to improving fouling, but I will point out that in earlier versions of the rules were fouling was more effective that games often descended into fouling wars and people complained about that too.

To my mind, the problem with old fouling (+2/+2 DP, rerolls available on armor/injury rolls) is a lot of the same thing that is wrong with CPOMB teams. They cause(d) the coaches to play something other than BB. Back in the day, first half wasn't about scoring TDs, taking the ball or defending hard. It was about avoiding the DP, outmaneuvering the DP, while defending your own DP and maximizing the fouls from your own DP(s). It didn't play like BB at all.

Cheers
Martin
Hi Martin - in the league I played in at the time (3rd), I don't remember fouling being perceived as either a significant problem, or as something that didn't play like BB. In the main we quite enjoyed the blood IIRC. Some players did not like their teams getting battered (no Journeymen then), for my part I quite enjoyed trying to nurse battered teams to recovery (within reason).

Likewise under the current rules, I have not personally experienced problems with ClawPoMb/TacklePoMb, but I hear the voices of those that say they do have problems.

All the best.

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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:37 pm 
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Hi Smeborg,
I don't want to pretend that everyones experience matches mine :orc:

But we played 1-year seasons with a lot of games.
So around the end of the season Piling On and Mighty Blow/Fang was widespread as an easy way to knock 30 points off your opponents in-game TV with a single block.
But even at the very beginning of the season, a Dirty Player backed by some rerolls could do a lot of damage.

And it played nothing like 2 teams trying to score. It was damage dealing and damage prevention. Not for the sake of long term survival. Just for the sake of having a shot at winning this game.

Cheers
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:03 am 
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plasmoid wrote:

So around the end of the season Piling On and Mighty Blow/Fang was widespread as an easy way to knock 30 points off your opponents in-game TV with a single block.
But even at the very beginning of the season, a Dirty Player backed by some rerolls could do a lot of damage.
Cheers
Martin


Your completely correct of course though it should be remembered that by far the best cure for those MB, Fang, Claw guys was fouling, though the BIGGEST issue with Blood Bowl back then was that your injury was determined in the same roll (10 BH, 11 SI, 12 Dead), meaning you could kill on a 6 or more in extreme circumstances. That said it was never a issue in the tabletop leagues I played in back then, though I did implement the altered injury system that was first released in compendium 1 (just called compendium).

But much like Smeborg says I've never seen it as a issue in blood bowl and while I've been subjected to complaints and moaning in the past its 9/10 coming from those that were trying to kill me team and it backfires. Also I feel there are degrees of ruthlessness, once my opponent is beaten and there best players are no longer able to place the result in contention then I stop fouling, I won't stop using PO however as that's important of spp's and records. Personally my preferred match ups are against coaches known for bringing the pain and for solid control of the bash game, I take far more joy in winning that war than I do almost anything else in Blood Bowl and while I hate 1turners with a passion (its more envy than anything else) killing Elves or Rats doesn't have the same pleasure as breaking an opponent that was actually fighting back. Of course when one players dice are on fire or has pissed off nuffle that's completely different but at least you've still got a shot at winning the game against a bash team if Nuffle hates you, against Elves your beyond boned (khemri pun there).

I wouldn't say its the worst players that complain the most at all though often times are that those that complain in game are those that are making glaring mistakes, instead I find its the most competitive players that moan about these combinations especially if they've not found a way to counter them properly. Now competitiveness is fine, though Blood Bowl in my eyes is and should always be a beer and pretzels game as it was designed to be but I think at some point the lines got blurred and some people take the game WAY to seriously. I've said it before but if the worst thing that happens in my week is a star/legendary player dies in a game then I'm having a damn good week and I've got nothing to complain about.


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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:56 pm 
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I'd like Piling On to play like a built in foul. If you go for the armour re-roll and roll doubles, you are sent off with a match penalty. This would effectively limit the impact a piling on player would have as, a) the coach might choose to not use the skill as often to avoid being down a player, and b) slows down the SPP farming nature of the skill, reducing the number of overall opportunities that the pile on piece has to get a casualty.


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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:53 pm 
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Thespian wrote:
I'd like Piling On to play like a built in foul. If you go for the armour re-roll and roll doubles, you are sent off with a match penalty. This would effectively limit the impact a piling on player would have as, a) the coach might choose to not use the skill as often to avoid being down a player, and b) slows down the SPP farming nature of the skill, reducing the number of overall opportunities that the pile on piece has to get a casualty.

I'd like that a lot, sounds easy and fits in the same rule for fouling: don't hit players that are already down.
If your player gets ejected 1/6 times he used Piling-On, this would really make the combo less effective: not as long effective.

It makes for a better: high reward - high risk play.

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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:42 pm 
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Vanguard wrote:
One thought that occurred to me would be to make PO subject to a straight ST roll in order to succeed. So:
  • Player decides to use Piling On
  • Player is placed prone
  • Player makes straight ST roll
  • If successful, re-roll armour/injury as appropriate

What I like about this is that it shifts the risk/reward balance by making the re-roll no longer guaranteed. For big guys, where PO is a fairly essential development option, it becomes a 2+ which is still pretty reliable. However, it makes adding PO to ST3 Blitzers much less attractive. It also fits the fluff, where ST loosely represents player size and PO would be more effective for bigger (higher ST) players.
On the downside, although it follows the same principles as an AG roll, it would be the only example of it in the game.


This is absolutely the best suggestion I've yet seen for PO. It also happens to solve the main problem with my own solution, which is that mine sucks too badly for ST3 players.

So here's how I would develop your suggestion:
1) Player decides to use Piling On after either the initial AV or Inj Roll
2) Player makes ST Roll on the Agility Table with +1 modifier (just like Break Tackle). It is re-rollable with TRRs or Pro. This would make the roll a 3+ for a ST3 player, or 2+ if blitzing.
2a) Player's effective ST is modified by a successful use of Dauntless before the block dice were rolled. Also, if blitzing, player gets another +1.
3) If the player fails his ST Roll, he is Knocked Down (threw himself down awkwardly), causing a turnover and AV check as normal.
4) If the player succeeds his ST Roll, he backs up to the AV Roll again, but this time gets the benefit of any ST differential. Eg: ST5 on ST3 would get +2 to this roll. MB can be used if it hasn't been already, but Claw cannot.
5) If AV of defender is broken, roll for Injury and apply any MB and Stunty/Niggle modifiers as applicable.

Benefits:
* Less risky to use on the blitz, but this is only once per turn
* Dauntless becomes a bigger part of the ST3 player's toolkit
* Dumbs PO down from its current incarnation, giving AV9 players more protection and making a successful PO much less likely (although when it does succeed POMB would be more hurtful to AV7 than it is now)
* Introduces risk of turnover and personal risk to player

There are many other changes I would suggest in conjunction with this change (fouling, MB split, Injury Table, etc.) but this is the best form of PO I've seen yet. Downside is, it's a bit complicated. But at least it keeps to the fluff a LOT better, so in a way is more intuitive.

[Edit 13Feb2016: added +1 to the ST Roll, making ST3 players able to PO on a 3+, or 2+ if blitzing.]


Last edited by fidius on Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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