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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:02 pm 
Veteran
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Posts: 213
I was thinking about this today and I came up with a better solution: make an opposed roll, like in shadowing but based on the strength of the players and you need to roll a 6+ in order to be able to use the PO skill.
It made sense to me since shadowing would be overpowered if you didn't need to roll any dice to counter it.

My suggestion differs in the following fields:
1) opposing strength is taken into account, which makes it more realistic
2) failure does not cause a turn-over or even the player to be placed prone
3) it's a fairly easy extra roll which simply reduces the effectiveness of the skill without any other changes to fouling, MB, Claw or anything else.
With a target of 6+ for the 2d6 roll, you'll have the following success rates:
Code:
ST▲ Success
-6    2.77%
-5    8.33%
-4    16.66%
-3    27.77%
-2    41.66%
-1    58.33%
-0    72.22%
+1   83.33%
+2   91.66%
+3   97.22%
+4   100%
&more

Which makes the ST3 players less likely to take PO but Big Guys will have a lot more use out of it when using it on their 'marking buddies'.

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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:16 pm 
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ClawPOMB is a nasty combination but I've never seen it in any of my leagues get out of hand. The other coaches/teams can police this sort of behavior. Claw/Mighty Blow/Piling On are three skills nearly no player comes with the skills to get started except a big guy or two. Chaos Minotaurs, Norse Yeti are the only two that come with one of the 3 and get the other 2 on a normal roll. The ClawPOMB heavy teams are going to be Chaos, and Chaos Pact (I don't think any other get mutations on normal rolls). Chaos players that choose these three skills have to have at least 31 points on the player they want to make a murderer, and the complaint here isn't a single player but many players with this skill combination. I assume we mean 3-4 players with ClawPOMB if not more. That means 3-4 players who each have over 31 points, so either incredibly long seasons or many many seasons. This is also the assumption that these players don't have block because if they did that is 51 points per player. Some players like a Yeti, and werewolves (necro) are built in counters to this breaking those guys armor on an 8+. Dirty player exists and fouling to take these guys out, not to mention treasury or real money bounties on players (like the Warrior with ClawPOMB's death)

The best Chaos team I played against was a juggernaut and terrifying to face. He had 0 ClawPOMB, he had plenty of ClawMB, but he was scary because he could clear the pitch and had enough dodge, and AG+ to control the ball easily too. Leagues can have a built in counter to these teams by limiting the amount of seasons or games a team or player can play before he has to retire. I can't see how any perpetual league can be fun with out either unwritten rules or written rules retiring teams. After a while everyone on the team is a legend and those rookie elves are in deep trouble.


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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:40 am 
Super Star
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Quote:
The ClawPOMB heavy teams are going to be Chaos, and Chaos Pact (I don't think any other get mutations on normal rolls).

and Nurgle.
and Underworld.
Actually, this roster is the best one to get this combo, asap:
- The troll needs only 2 simple skill
- they have 2 players - starting with block! - would could access the 3 skills on simples

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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:33 pm 
Experienced
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My bad. Nurgle though faces the same problem as Chaos, which is starting with no existing Blockers and that team will take even longer to get to the powerful CLAWPOMB. Underworld can get two blitzers with that by 31 points, which can be scary. The team can also get more CLPOMB players faster with their enhanced speed. My view still remains though, even though there are some easier paths to get to the same result.


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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 6:49 pm 
Rookie
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Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:57 am
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This is something that i actually hate, the claw piling on mighty blow combo is a pain for me and thats cause i play ogres...

and heres why... when you max out ya players which tends to be in MM online.. playing against these teams is no fun at all.. especially since i have worked an age to get ogres skilled up, ogres which at the best of times is hard to skill up and takes alot of games to do so...
the carnage that these players cause is amazing and really is not skillful play in the game at all.. its just remove pieces and hey you got nothing left so i will just run in tds and score.... to me the problem lies in the combination of these skills combined, that causes so much carnage, and really no skill to really aquire them... also on that note there is no way to really combat it if the coach is good enough at protecting the players that have it...

So what can we do... well i do like the one kill skill rule that only one kill skill can be used per player so if you get claw you cannot combine piling on or MB wih that skill kinda like frenzy and grab do not work together..

The other rule i would like is keeping the combination as is but you can only get a Badly hurt if any of the 3 skills are combined to cause an injury so you still get the cas for it but it keeps the opponents team from getting mauled completely and all that hard work gone in the blink of a few freak blocks which are not freak blocks because you really designed the team to take out any opponent it come into contact with...

thats my view on it...with the way the rules are done it really join them or be a cas of it... there is no beating this really..


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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Sat May 07, 2016 8:04 am 
Da Cynic
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If we are just spitballing here

Why not put piling on back to "add your strength to the armour roll, let it stack with claw and mighty blow, but your own player is stunned by the impact"

So you are kind of breaking armour, but you may only Stun your opponent and you will be stunned yourself

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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Sat May 07, 2016 11:31 am 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:55 pm
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For the sake of spitballing... Geggster suggested that PO could only be used if DD was rolled. I kind of like that: limits use somewhat, but increases the chances of it being used the higher the relative ST of the attacker is.


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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Sun May 08, 2016 2:07 pm 
Legend
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The initial post is being ignored in favor of people flogging their hobby horses....

The collective was shown how to isolate the "problem" using the current rules....

Anyone that can't accept that should stand against the wall with the khorne-brets.... :zzz:

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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Sun May 08, 2016 2:29 pm 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

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I think what people are after is a way to make it work in blind matchmaking.


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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Sun May 08, 2016 8:44 pm 
Legend
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dode74 wrote:
I think what people are after is a way to make it work in blind matchmaking.


BINGO!

This is a computer gaming environment problem and, if addressable, only need effect that format.... :)

When I started this particular thread, the vocal minority had me thinking this was a ubiquitous problem (i.e.,across all formats) and wondering why we locals never encountered it :-? ????

Now I understand it is a symptom of a hyper-gamed, computer environment....

All this (imho) should be relocated to the digital part of the site and dealt with by programmers if they so desire to deviate any further from the TT environment....

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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:22 pm 
Experienced
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Anyone else than me that fear that with rolling a D3 on mvp, the road to develop ClPoMb players will become to easy, and with the new redrafting league rules it will become to dominated by ClPoMb mindset. Or Ag 4/5 superstars as the only efficient way to counter it.


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 Post subject: Re: How to fix claws, MiB, PO within the rules:
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:44 pm 
Legend
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adhansa wrote:
Anyone else than me that fear that with rolling a D3 on mvp, ....

Not really. If I run a league and the players dont like it (the D3 MVP thing) we will simply not use it. That and any other rule, really.

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