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 Post subject: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:43 pm 
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Hi all,

I hope this is the right place for posting this. I recently did a write-up on the main skills in bloodbowl and how they synergize (first on reddit, then at Mike's request on thenaf.net). It's mostly intended as a learning resource for newer coaches, but I figured the grizzled veterans of TFF would be interested in seeing it and vehemently disagreeing with parts of it. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:26 pm 
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What, no vehement disagreements yet? ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:37 pm 
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Only disagreement I would have is that Nerves of Steel I think is useful on the DE Thrower as it maximizes the usefulness of Dump Off that they already come with. But that is single positional in a see of other player types.

On my Slann team, I have two Kick-off Return Catchers. 2 Kick-off Return/Diving Catch players with AG 4 means I very rarely ever have to worry about picking up the ball to start a drive. Again ... this combo is very situational and only really applies to one team as they start with one of the 2 skills and have AG 4 on that player.

Outside of these stray comments on combos and never take skills .... I thought it was good starter advice.

Tom

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:36 pm 
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
Only disagreement I would have is that Nerves of Steel I think is useful on the DE Thrower as it maximizes the usefulness of Dump Off that they already come with. But that is single positional in a see of other player types.

On my Slann team, I have two Kick-off Return Catchers. 2 Kick-off Return/Diving Catch players with AG 4 means I very rarely ever have to worry about picking up the ball to start a drive. Again ... this combo is very situational and only really applies to one team as they start with one of the 2 skills and have AG 4 on that player.

Outside of these stray comments on combos and never take skills .... I thought it was good starter advice.

Tom


Wow, thank you Galak! I do think AG4 dumpoff NoS can be fun, as can diving catch KOR. However, I do think these are still more niche/novelty builds than the optimal way to develop those positionals. While I think such novelty builds can be great and fun ways to play blood bowl (as are my 0% bash chaos), they were not the topic of the post as such.


Last edited by the_Sage on Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:37 pm 
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
Only disagreement I would have is that Nerves of Steel I think is useful on the DE Thrower as it maximizes the usefulness of Dump Off that they already come with. But that is single positional in a see of other player types.
I think Pass is probably better overall, as it has uses outside of Dumping Off. In one TZ it is better than NoS anyway (89% rather than 83%). In two TZ it is still fine (75%) given the trade off with other uses for Pass. If your Runner is in three or more TZs well ... then you probably have other problems (both in the specific game and in terms of general coaching). :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:53 pm 
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Now we need an even greater mind to explain the existence of all those other skills in the game :)

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:00 pm 
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I very much agree with you on Strong arm as it sucks and is a huge waste of TV. But think you should have made more of the fact that it is a doubles choice for throwers and so there are loads of better options to spend the extra 10 TV on.

I suppose the difficulty is covering those who try to make a thrower on a bash team using beastmen or wights with strong arm, sure hands and pass/accurate on doubles.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:37 am 
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RoterSternHochdahl wrote:
Now we need an even greater mind to explain the existence of all those other skills in the game :)


For many of them it's not that hard; they exist as starting skills for positionals. Dumpoff (delf runner), Nerves of Steel (pro catcher), Strong arm (fling tree), Thick skull (dorfs, minos), foul appearance/disturbing presence (Nurgle/Yeti)
Also, bear in mind that not every coach has the goal to play optimally, and even among the coaches who do, not every team does. (like this one: https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=757158)

Also, some leagues may have special rules which alter the viability of certain skills, such as the bash & stall free passing-oriented "rush and pass", which made this team viable: https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=676632


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:21 pm 
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Is Sprint / Sure Feet (plus Dodge, Leap and so on) for high Ma one turners something that you thought about? It's a fairly niche case, Gutter Runners and Elf Catchers only so it's an edge case I suppose.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:56 pm 
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Raveen wrote:
Is Sprint / Sure Feet (plus Dodge, Leap and so on) for high Ma one turners something that you thought about? It's a fairly niche case, Gutter Runners and Elf Catchers only so it's an edge case I suppose.


Good call, I should certainly mention OTTD specialists in there somewhere, thanks!
*edit: updated.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:07 pm 
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I have to say I disagree with your assessment of NoS. Having played Pro Elves a fair bit recently, I've really come to appreciate it on catchers. Being able to pass/hand off to a catcher whilst he's in tackle zones means you can get the ball to him *before* he moves, which opens up a huge amount of mobility options (especially if you pass it to him and he then goes on to hand it off!)

Other mutations are also very good on the right teams. Claw is good on bash teams, sure. But two heads for agile teams, extra arm/big hand for agility limited teams (eg Nurgle). Yes, I know suggesting mutations for 2 specific teams is pretty niche, but there's only 5 teams with mutation access anyhow...

Other skills that might warrant a mention are break tackle and jump up on slower strong teams. Finally, shadowing can have a use (albeit a corner case) as part of the blodge sidestep diving tackle (+ tackle) combo.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:24 pm 
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Heartsbane wrote:
I have to say I disagree with your assessment of NoS. Having played Pro Elves a fair bit recently, I've really come to appreciate it on catchers. Being able to pass/hand off to a catcher whilst he's in tackle zones means you can get the ball to him *before* he moves, which opens up a huge amount of mobility options (especially if you pass it to him and he then goes on to hand it off!)

Other mutations are also very good on the right teams. Claw is good on bash teams, sure. But two heads for agile teams, extra arm/big hand for agility limited teams (eg Nurgle). Yes, I know suggesting mutations for 2 specific teams is pretty niche, but there's only 5 teams with mutation access anyhow...

Other skills that might warrant a mention are break tackle and jump up on slower strong teams. Finally, shadowing can have a use (albeit a corner case) as part of the blodge sidestep diving tackle (+ tackle) combo.


We'll just have to agree to disagree on NoS. However, the rest of your feedback I'll gladly incoporate:
Ooh, I missed break tackle, good point! Will add it ASAP. And to think lizards are among my favorite races.... *hangs head in shame*
I suppose mentioning 2 heads/extra arms for the beastman/pestigor carrier, and big hand for them or a gutter is worthwhile as well.

(btw it's 6 teams by my count: Chaos, Nurgle, Pact, Underworld, Skaven, Cdorfs)


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:44 pm 
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Is Strong Arm so bad when combined with accurate? I think it allows you to keep your thrower backfield, keeping him safe and forcing your opponent to either spread out his team or allow some safe stalling before scoring with weak teams. No enourmous expierience but i think it works well in my elf team.

Not sure either if i agree on the +AG. Sure maybe not as TV-effecient as skills but in many environements levels and not TV is the limiting factor. And if you compare 3 +AG against 3 skills and 60k inducements, i think 3 +AG are better for many teams.

Just my minor disagreements, very well written, wish i had access to something like this when i started playing.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:46 pm 
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I am looking forward to further installments and updates on that list!

Good work!

MB

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:51 pm 
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adhansa wrote:
Is Strong Arm so bad when combined with accurate? I think it allows you to keep your thrower backfield, keeping him safe and forcing your opponent to either spread out his team or allow some safe stalling before scoring with weak teams. No enourmous expierience but i think it works well in my elf team.

Not sure either if i agree on the +AG. Sure maybe not as TV-effecient as skills but in many environements levels and not TV is the limiting factor. And if you compare 3 +AG against 3 skills and 60k inducements, i think 3 +AG are better for many teams.

Just my minor disagreements, very well written, wish i had access to something like this when i started playing.


Thanks for the feedback. Strong arm + accurate isn't bad IF you want to make passing play your plan A, rather than playing a running game, with passing as a viable plan B. That can be a lot of fun, but I do not think it's the optimal way to play.

You're right about the TV matchmaking point. I've probably played over 80% of my matches in a TV matchmaking environment, so my points may be biased towards this view. If you're not being matched via TV, then TV management is less of an issue, and you can more easily afford to grow big (especially VERY big once you give up a wiz anyway; that's how my TV 2910 wood elves won a fumbbl major, after all ;). I'll consider adding a snippet about that as well.


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