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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:35 pm 
Super Star
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the_Sage wrote:
What, no vehement disagreements yet? ;)

With something so well put there is very little to disagree with! I would add a little to your Mutation section and maybe about those two skills (NoS/Strong Arm) everyone is discussing. The rest seems well put.

Mutations
Cross out “Very long Legs (on a leaper)” as it is really not worth taking!
Add the following -
Extra arms and Big Hand improve ball handing. Big hand is worth while on a single Gutter Runner or Underworld Goblin for ball retrieval where as Extra Arms is more useful for the various AG 3 Chaos teams to pretend to have an AG 4 runner. It can also be useful on a second Beastman or Rotter to aid with ball retrieval or to have the option of passing when the game is not going to plan.

Under the skills to avoid section
Also worth mentioning are a few potentially tempting skills that you’ll pretty much always want to avoid as there use is very situational

A catcher is your most mobile player, and with guard (+ blodge sidestep), he’ll be much more valuable than with NoS. It is useful on Pro-Elf teams because they have four players that start with it; on a single player it does not add enough value.

Strong arm is a tempting doubles for a thrower, but it is more expensive and flat-out worse than accurate. Dodge is a better double choice for Throwers without agility access. The exception being Elven Throwers (High/Wood/Pro) who get about as much value out of it as Accurate which makes it worth considering for building a dedicated passer espectially if you are in an environment where the extra team value will not matter. Even then you would be better off with leader, safe throw, leap, fend or kick-off return than with strong arm.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:41 pm 
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Block is a rubbish skill, as are Guard, Claw, Mighty Blow and Dodge, and I urge players out there not to take them (or use them if a player already has it), especially anyone I happen to play. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:39 pm 
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Marlow wrote:
Even then you would be better off with leader, safe throw, leap, fend or kick-off return than with strong arm.


Remember strong arm is a doubles choice for all throwers so they can take a good doubles skill instead like guard or MB.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:46 pm 
Super Star
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spubbbba wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Even then you would be better off with leader, safe throw, leap, fend or kick-off return than with strong arm.


Remember strong arm is a doubles choice for all throwers so they can take a good doubles skill instead like guard or MB.

Read the orginal article (which is what you are quoting); my amentment is in italics.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:51 am 
Super Star
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GalakStarscraper wrote:

On my Slann team, I have two Kick-off Return Catchers. 2 Kick-off Return/Diving Catch players with AG 4 means I very rarely ever have to worry about picking up the ball to start a drive. Again ... this combo is very situational and only really applies to one team as they start with one of the 2 skills and have AG 4 on that player.


Slann Catchers are better with Block, Dodge, Side Step/Sure Hands

Kick-Off Return is not optimal on them because they desperately lack good, useful, core skills for AG 4 MA 7 players, they don't even have Catch to increase their chance of catching the ball when it's kicked.
If we talk about slow teams like Dwarfs, Khemri, Orcs then Kick-Off Return is a nice pick for 1 Runner/Thrower, but it's a situational skill therefore it should be taken just on one player, not two.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:32 pm 
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Unless I'm missing it, I don't see any mentioning of Juggernaut in its role for player hunting by countering wrestle or with its synergies with frenzy for opening wholes/gaps in a defence (you mention it for surfing - but this is going to be of limited results against experienced coaches). For me its as an essential blitzing skill and interestingly the one place I don't put it is on big guys who are not worth wasting a blitz on IMO unless you've got nothing pressing or important to worry about at that time.

Wrestle, dodge Fend players are often the mainstay of agility teams screens and having a Juggernaut, tackle POMB guy makes them as easy to remove as a rookie lineman which is massive and will rapidly allow a control/bashing team the ability to dominate the pitch by countering a big element of agility play.

I was specifically looking for this in your write up as I'm a firm believer that Juggernaut is one of the most underrated skills in the game. Thanks for reading;
crimsonsun


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:26 pm 
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crimsonsun wrote:
Unless I'm missing it, I don't see any mentioning of Juggernaut in its role for player hunting by countering wrestle or with its synergies with frenzy for opening wholes/gaps in a defence (you mention it for surfing - but this is going to be of limited results against experienced coaches). For me its as an essential blitzing skill and interestingly the one place I don't put it is on big guys who are not worth wasting a blitz on IMO unless you've got nothing pressing or important to worry about at that time.

Wrestle, dodge Fend players are often the mainstay of agility teams screens and having a Juggernaut, tackle POMB guy makes them as easy to remove as a rookie lineman which is massive and will rapidly allow a control/bashing team the ability to dominate the pitch by countering a big element of agility play.

I was specifically looking for this in your write up as I'm a firm believer that Juggernaut is one of the most underrated skills in the game. Thanks for reading;
crimsonsun


I do think a juggernaut is fine after block, (claw)pomb, tackle. Only took it once for that purpose (but then I'm more an agility coach)


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:39 am 
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I like your article a lot. I would like to join people in the fact that NoS gets great if you have two or more players with it. Pass is indeed better for the passing player. But NoS works on both passing and catching...
It is only for AG4 players typically.

As is pass block, but the player should have catch or disturbing presence first. The fact that you can gain 3 MA out of your turn is really game changing sometimes.
As it is situational, this is typically a late pick or done if you know you will be facing more than regular amounts of passing teams.

Finally :
I don't get it why people disregard +AV so easily. As long as you didn't roll doubles. I believe that it is very good on AV 7 players with their core skillset complete: Wardancer with strip Ball, tackle, side step, a Witch Elf with wrestle side-step, tackle and on statfeaks as you mentioned.

For AV 7 positionals it is a huge difference in armor breaks and players with 4 skills are vastly more useful standing on the pitch than stunned or off the pitch.
Don't forget that they will fail 1 Dodge in 6 attempts and will for armor a lot of times.

I do agree that MA works best on the short term. So it heavily depends on your goal for the team.

Which brings me to the point that sometimes a player needs to pick up a skill that the team is missing. Like tackle or kick. Certainly in a fixed match-up format. In TV ranking you have to optimise each player 's build however.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:20 pm 
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the_Sage wrote:
I do think a juggernaut is fine after block, (claw)pomb, tackle. Only took it once for that purpose (but then I'm more an agility coach)

You don't mention Juggernaut (or Grab) on a POMBer in the article. One of each is awesome to have.

Also, +MA is worth it on a Treeman. Or as a late skill on a Mummy.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:16 pm 
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@ mattsslayer
I prefer frenzy over grab for most MA 6 or better (C)POMB, but grab for big guys like the treeman and some other S but no G acces players. Frenzy basicly gives you an always succesfull pro reroll, except against skulls and those you dont want to rely on pro anyways.

@Sage,
nice writeup I think aside from the mandatory skills block and G and Guard on S, most skills are actually specialistic, and knowing synergy is usefull for that.
There is the general sense that blodge is good, and thats something worth knowing
But it could also focus more on the part after the basics where specialist roles with lot of skills come in. You wrote it for Tv maniging leagues and thats understandbly excellent. If you dont hve to manage that, well that part might be a bit lacking, as understandable as that is, since its your core to your mission.

just a few comments then on what you did wrote.
Dont take block AND wreste. Normally something i agree with, also like dont take wrestle on your designated ballcarrier. Sound advice, but also give the exceptional situational insights that people can learn from, like a darkwelf runner with its standard dumpoff could do with wrestle in the case that you dumpoff to the attacker, and if he throws a 2 dice skull or both down, its a turnover. or note that juggernaut on a cpomb means that wrestle (and fend) have no more effect during a blitz, and this means you suddenly are without blockprotection and simply go down faster. or when you have block and the other attacker (with block) has the ball but makes a both down result,e.g. on the blitz to make a touchdown, suddenly he is faced with a turnover.
Would i take block and wrestle, probably not, but its worth thinking about the possibility and know from there how you would like to proceed.

on a block dodge but no sure hands player a wrestle, strip ball, tackle player with always get the ball lose except on skulls.

jump up norse blitzers with pobm tackle guard and the basic frenzy, jump up(mentioned already) really are good beyond comparison(for the easy of building up), as you will know when we pay game 8.:-) but overall its not a skill you would give on a double. in fact i might be tempted to give out frenzy before jump up.
jumpup is good against a few things not specificly mentioned, namely as anti fouling. normally you will stunn a player before trying to do piling on, so normally you are on the ground and the other player is stunned, but its rare to have other players still standing next to your hitter when his turn comes again, except ofcourse in the case of a small foul.
Thick skull is an unmentioned skill thats very very good against fouling making much sense if you guard the grounded/prone player well enough(and/or have multiple of the beasts, so it becomes more or less pointless and dangerous to your own winchances)

i consider anything but the mainstay to be annoyance skills. most people dont really expect them, so they might slip under the rader, and work their magic, but its not somthing to be counted on.

having said that, i am reminded that both theams having all block is not going to help either team much, but a few different skills there might, so variaty is the spice of life, and the key to success for a bloodbowlcoach. No the key needed is how much of it is needed, and to that you have given a good start

things like the above give food for thought and should be maybe entered seperatly but again its worth thinking about it.
also i want not intending to write this much down, and i am unsure if its of any help, but i admire your skills and style of presenting and the time you take for bb so the least i could do is drop a line here


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:48 pm 
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sirsebstar wrote:
@ mattsslayer
I prefer frenzy over grab for most MA 6 or better (C)POMB, but grab for big guys like the treeman and some other S but no G acces players. Frenzy basicly gives you an always succesfull pro reroll, except against skulls and those you dont want to rely on pro anyways.
Frenzy can be countered with traps and stuff, but yeah, one Frenzy player with POMB is a good bet. I've done that plenty of times. I wouldn't do it in multiples, though, and I do like having at least two POMB players. Grab and Juggernaut both counter Fend, each in its own way. Juggs does it on the blitz, Grab does it on the line. At high TV people will put their Wrestle/Fend linos on your POMBers, and it's nice to have a counter. Also, Fend is a popular Superstar or Legend skill on freaks and ballers and other targets. It's not really a consideration until high TV, but in a maxed-out league, one JuggerPOMB and one GrabPOMB can really make a difference.

Generally, for me, playing Orcs or Humans or Amazons or some other 4-Blitzer race, one Blitzer goes MB, T, PO, then 2 from Frenzy, Pro, Jump Up (double), or Juggernaut. One will get something special, and a mix of MB, Guard, and Tackle. The other two, assuming both normals-out all the way, get MB, Guard, Tackle, PO, and Grab, more or less in that order. (Sometimes, two go MB-T, one goes MB-G, and one goes G-MB, for the first two skills.)

But definitely, Juggernaut and Grab are skills for super-stars and legends, and not before.

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What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:09 am 
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Happygrue is one of the world's better coaches: he took Juggernaut on a non-PO hitter in the NBFL, won a couple championships with him. In the last NBFL championship, he used Jugs to turn a both-down into a push twice (he lost, but still). I wouldn't do it, but it's not insane.

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What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:09 pm 
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ty mattgslater you are quite right ofcourse, but i also think you reinforce the central premise.
If you have only a few skills to chose from, juggernaut is not going to be the top skills choice to make.
it has synergy though, and thus you need to figure out what it is you want/need and adjust your skillchoises accordingly.

in an unlimited league i will have juggernaut and/or grab on the PO for the reason to grab fenders and ignore def skills like wrestle, fend and sidestep on a blitz.
Obviously frenzy and juggernaut have synergy for pushing around and out.
grab and juggernaut have no synergy so thats not a combo i would like to make. grab does have synergy for pomb hurters.

i have never played with really high tv, and your post really brought my mind on the subject. I am however reluctant to find myself there, i think/assume the games will be pretty brutal and therefor only entertaining in thee first half


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of the various skills and their synergies
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 1:42 am 
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sirsebstar wrote:
ty mattgslater you are quite right ofcourse, but i also think you reinforce the central premise.
If you have only a few skills to chose from, juggernaut is not going to be the top skills choice to make.
it has synergy though, and thus you need to figure out what it is you want/need and adjust your skillchoises accordingly.
Correct.

Quote:
grab and juggernaut have no synergy so thats not a combo i would like to make. grab does have synergy for pomb hurters.
Grab also synergizes with Guard. So teams with limited S access (or teams that want to spam Guard but still POMB some) can take it as a #5 skill to tie Guard in with POMB.

Quote:
i have never played with really high tv, and your post really brought my mind on the subject. I am however reluctant to find myself there, i think/assume the games will be pretty brutal and therefor only entertaining in thee first half
Hmmm, well, games like that happen but most teams run deep benches in the high TV league I play in on FUMBBL, so the whole game tends to be exciting most of the time.

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What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.


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