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 Post subject: A question about Tiers and Khemri.
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 1:11 pm 
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So I have been contemplating which team to take to the Blood Bowl release tournament(I actually have no board, so I can't attend the local tournaments) and reading the various Tournament postings, I've noticed that Khemri are placed at tier 2 while Ogres, Vampires and such are placed at tier 3.

Am I missing something about them? They seem irredeemably bad - They're a beat-em-up team with AV7 linemen, their Big Guys have no Mighty Blow, they can't throw, they can't catch and they don't appear to have the sneaky scoring advantages of all the tier three teams(Like throw team-mate, hypnotic gaze or special weapons).

Am I missing something with them? It appears that the only real tactic they have is to grab the ball, cage up and grind for a turn 8 touchdown. They're like Dwarfs minus tackle, lower armor and worse agility.


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 Post subject: Re: A question about Tiers and Khemri.
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 1:20 pm 
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Have to say I've wondered this myself, and never having played with or against them it's hard to know... But I'm guessing the impact of 4 strength 5 mighty blow players straight off the bat is the thing. Providing you've enough re-rolls to mitigate the skulls and both downs somewhat, thats a huge amount of damage dealing potential that is unmatched by any other team.

Well, I suppose the same can be said about Ogres, but they're supported by S1 players!


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 Post subject: Re: A question about Tiers and Khemri.
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 2:12 pm 
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Fold wrote:
Have to say I've wondered this myself, and never having played with or against them it's hard to know... But I'm guessing the impact of 4 strength 5 mighty blow players straight off the bat is the thing. Providing you've enough re-rolls to mitigate the skulls and both downs somewhat, thats a huge amount of damage dealing potential that is unmatched by any other team.

Well, I suppose the same can be said about Ogres, but they're supported by S1 players!


Their strength 5 players don't have mighty blow. Only Undead have S5 mummies.


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 Post subject: Re: A question about Tiers and Khemri.
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 2:29 pm 
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As Scrappa pointed out, Tomb Guardians don't even get the Mighty Blow.

One of the main differences is that Khemri have no negatraits - so no Bonehead/Blood Lust. So whatever your plan they will actually do it rather than just stand there and create a hole in the defence/attack or run off to bite something. The other thing that the teir 3's tend to suffer is increased 'attrition' although many of the Khemri's skellies are AV7, they have no Stunty or there own players biting them; most of them stay on the pitch on an Injury Roll of 8 rather than get KO'd (or KO'd on a 7 like Stunties).

Something else to consider is that Tiers are not official or set in stone some tournaments will put Vamps in Tier 2 or have 4 tiers with stunty in Tier 4 and Vamps, Khemri, Nurgle, Underworld in Tier 3 for example.

Don't get me wrong Khemri are hard work and as pointed out their play style is somewhat one dimensional if you are trying to win but personally I understand there elevation above Ogres/Goblins/Flings/Underworld and Vamps in a tiering system.

ps Scrappa, don't know where you are but if you are vaguely local to the South-West any of the Tournament Organisers round here will sort you out a pitch for the day if that is all that is stopping you getting to a NAF tournament (to be honest this is true for all the TO's I know round the country!) just let the TO know when you sign up to the tournament (the bring pitch things in rule pack is so the majority bring there pitches as there are not many people out there with 20 boards just hanging around). Next tournament in South West is Cake Bowl in Swindon in a couple of weeks and there's Foul Bowl (1 day tournament) at start of June in Cardiff and Gert Bowl is in Bristol at the end of June.

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 Post subject: Re: A question about Tiers and Khemri.
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 3:15 pm 
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Those must the Tiers for that event.

The Tiers the BBRC used were:

Tier 1: Anyone not mentioned (45% to 55% win rate in tabletop league play)
Tier 1.5: Slann, Underworld, Chaos Pact (40% to 50%)
Tier 2: Vampire (35% to 45%)
Tier 3: Halfling, Goblin, Ogre (30% to 35%)

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 Post subject: Re: A question about Tiers and Khemri.
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 4:19 pm 
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I wish there were a 'Like' button so I could let each of you know how much I appreciate your feedback on this.

The reason I'm asking is that I want to take a really terrible team and try to do as well as I can. So far, it's Nurgle and Khemri.

Nurgle, my plan involves Lewdgrip. He really is that good - He and a few Pestigors, combined with a tentacle-heavy team to run interference, seem like real 2-turn playmakers.

But Khemri... Khemri's best star player for playmaking is S2, AV 7 and can't pass the ball to anyone else because they probably won't catch it(4+ with a reroll is 75% of the time, but that is a turnover 25% of the time compared to Goblin flinging which means failures are never turnovers unless it's a 1 turn touchdown play). Against anyone who knows what they're doing, 3 turns is really the best you can do safely. I can't figure out a consistent 2 turn play with them, and even Dwarfs have a decent couple of 2 turn plays between their star players.


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 Post subject: Re: A question about Tiers and Khemri.
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:40 am 
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Khemri have some obvious weaknesses.

Most players have ag2, and none above that.

They have a number of av7 players.

Expensive rerolls.

Poor skill access on the TGs and...decay.

But they some strengths...err...strength. Having 4 ST5 players is a *major* advantage, you will out strength almost any opponent. Yes, rookie mummies hit harder then rookie TGs but MV4 is a major advantage over MV3.

AG2 is also not really that bad. Unless you are being pressured, Throw Ras will pick up the pall 75% of the time which is good enough. If your plan is to hand it off or throw it after that...well...why are you playing Khemri?

AV7+thick skull on 40k linemen isn't that bad either really...especially once claw appears in your league.

And speaking of damage inflicting, Khemri are one of the best fouling teams in bloodbowl.


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 Post subject: Re: A question about Tiers and Khemri.
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:40 am 
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Khemri's main asset is that they are so bad that hardly anyone uses them, and thus most opponents don't have much experience playing against them. I've a pretty decent NAF record with them, and I dare say a lot of it is due to the opposition making poor choices.


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 Post subject: Re: A question about Tiers and Khemri.
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:07 pm 
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TG with MB. Both blitzers with MB any one thrower with leader. The other with Block or a skeleton with block. Thats good for most CAS or most Entertaining :D

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 Post subject: Re: A question about Tiers and Khemri.
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:16 am 
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If it's a tournament, I never take Mighty Blow. Mixture of Guard and Break Tackle on the TGs, Tackle/Frenzy/Guard on the Blitz-Ras.


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 Post subject: Re: A question about Tiers and Khemri.
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:15 am 
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Location: Paradise Stadium, where the pitch is green and the cheerleaders are pretty.
Khemri are tier 2 in most tiered tournaments because they win more games than the "Comedy" teams.

I've played with and against them, and they ARE pretty bad. Like Orcs and Dwarves, they really only have one legit tactic (cage up and smash forward), and they're worse at it than either of those teams. And there's no real Plan B; even Dwarves can hand off to a Blitzer or something if things get hairy, but that's high-risk, low-reward for Khemri.

But they're better than Goblins or Halflings. Picking up the ball on a 4+ with Sure Hands isn't *that* bad, it almost always works after a turn or three. And four ST5 Tomb Guards is pretty scary. If you can get them working together, especially if some of them have Guard, nobody's coming through. They aren't really a battering ram, but they are a brick wall. And Decay doesn't matter in tournaments!
And a few TG's with Break Tackle can really mitigate their biggest liability (lack of mobility).

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 Post subject: Re: A question about Tiers and Khemri.
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:12 pm 
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Moraiwe wrote:
If it's a tournament, I never take Mighty Blow. Mixture of Guard and Break Tackle on the TGs, Tackle/Frenzy/Guard on the Blitz-Ras.


Depending on the ruleset of your tournament, I'd consider all Mighty Blow actually. I just won a three round tournament of 40 people with Khemri because I had 6 MiB and even against Orcs, CDs and Undead (in that order) I had 17 cas in three rounds. No one could stand against all that ST and MiB.

Just my two cents.

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 Post subject: Re: A question about Tiers and Khemri.
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:08 am 
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I think 3 games is a little small a sample to draw any conclusion. With 40 players, 3 rounds isn't usually good enough have a winner declared.


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 Post subject: Re: A question about Tiers and Khemri.
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:44 am 
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I find that Mighty Blow is one of those skills which is streaky. Sometimes it's useless, sometimes it helps over and over again.

I love it in leagues, because league teams play more games than tournament teams. Causing extra casualties really adds up, both in man advantage and in SPP. You really want both Guard and MB on every Tomb Guard in a league (and BLOCK of course), and that happens faster if you get MB first. (I had that ... then they all died).

But in a tournament, blocking is more tactical than strategic. By that I mean, when you're throwing a block in a tournament, your main goal is usually to move a player and get them out of your way. KOs and Cas are more of a bonus. In tournaments, I more often find myself choosing not to take blocks than in leagues. Especially when the benefit of just a pushback is negligible, and the downside of a turnover is bad. Like if a Tomb Guard is standing next to an Orc Blitzer; just standing there and forcing him to either dodge or commit assists is probably a stronger move than taking a risky block with little upside.

So if I'm trying to make blocking more effective (as in, more knockdowns and less turnovers), Guard is always the way to go. It's best when it lets the Tomb Guards regularly take 3d blocks instead of 2d. Long-term, that will probably lead to less casualties than if you'd taken MB, but more Guards means you can keep your ball carrier safer on offense, and get more knockdowns throughout the game. Knockdowns help you improve your strategic positioning and (if you're a better coach than I am) more wins.

That's the theory anyway. Congrats SunDevil! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: A question about Tiers and Khemri.
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:27 am 
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I just reread what I wrote, and realised I totally shat all over your parade, SunDevil. Sorry about that. Well done indeed!


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