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 Post subject: Vampire rookie coach, Starting Roster NTTB
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:36 pm 
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Hi TFF,

In our second year of our local league we are applying NTTB to have more diversity in races joining the league.

I just bought a vampire team, so I should test it out, right?

Now I'm a little in a dilemma about how many Vamps to start the team with considering they eat through TRR with no basic skills and Bloodlust needs to be managed as well. Luckily Thick Skull helps with keeping some Thralls longer on the pitch as local blood bank. So I do feel a little more comfortable with starting with only 11 players.

My first idea is to start with:
3 Vamps, 8 Thralls, 4 TRR and 7 FF

The rational is here that Vamps really need skills asap to be able to afford adding more Vamps. So starting with less vamps then TRR seems fine and 7FF should pretty much secure + FAME in the first 4 games. Which most likely will help to get more TRR to make your rookies perform something resembling to Blood Bowl.

It of course also generates extra cash inflow and can't die by more that 1 point a game :)

The downside of this build is that you only start with 3 vamps and if one get's injured during the game, just two vampires aren't as threatening anymore.

So my question is: is + FAME and cash worth more than starting with an extra vampire. At the risk that more Vampire will suck more Thralls dry and will get massively outnumbered anyways and still get battered.

The biggest strength of Vampire teams are he Vampires of course, so shouldn't you maximise these after TRR's?

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 Post subject: Re: Vampire rookie coach, Starting Roster NTTB
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:28 pm 
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I don't know much about NTBB, but in standard BB that's the roster I use, less the FF (I go 12 men and 30k Treasury). I'm no expert with Vamps, though.

I'd buy 2 Thralls and an Apoth before buying the 4th Vamp.

FF is never worth it in LRB6, don't know if that's different in NTBB.

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 Post subject: Re: Vampire rookie coach, Starting Roster NTTB
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:40 pm 
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the the apo, but keep +2 fans as a start, it might help in the first game, ofcourse if you lose, it will steadely decrease..
use the apo only on the vamps. you need loners for the LOS.
but if things work out well, get 2 extra lineman and then the 4th vampire.
AG4 levels up pretty fast, st 4 too, so st4 ag4 will mean a skill every 2 games on a rookie, if you can manage it.
a 5th reroll is worth it too
so there is that

i have not done enough vampire, but i have seen them do it. and learned


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 Post subject: Re: Vampire rookie coach, Starting Roster NTTB
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:22 am 
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Just about to start vamps in a 1.1m league, I've gone for 5 vamps 3rr and as many thralls as possible. I wanted to go for all out vampiness and it's probably a mistake but should be a laugh at least.
Not really had a problem managing blood list though so may be why I'm more gung-ho than others


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 Post subject: Re: Vampire rookie coach, Starting Roster NTTB
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:01 am 
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did the NTBB changed some rules/impact of the FF?
if not, i think the 7FF is a waste*.
anything else would be better.
(either a 5RR, either a 12th man and 30K in bank, or even 12thman+1AC+1CL+10kbank)


*what is the duration/format of the league? how many games ?

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 Post subject: Re: Vampire rookie coach, Starting Roster NTTB
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:53 pm 
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Thanks for joining the discussion to all of you.

NTTB doesn't change FF. So I guess that route isn't as valuable.
Good question about the length of the league.
Last season it was 12 regular season games and 2 play-off games.

Given the new insights, I would opt for the apoth and 2 FF. If you typically need a bench before adding extra thralls, I can use every extra bit of a push in income.

If I buy first 2 Thralls, I need to make 190k before I get my 4th Vampire. That would be like on average 5+ games.
I don't like the prospect of that because that would be like halfway through the competition.
I was thinking that having some skills on the existing Vampires is more important to make sure there are enough TRR to go around.
With more survivability on the thralls, I believe that I can aim at 14 mens later in the competition.

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 Post subject: Re: Vampire rookie coach, Starting Roster NTTB
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:56 pm 
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having regeneration on your vampires (and the dedicated apo use) wil mean if they skill up, you are more likely to keep them.
remember apo needs to be used BEFORE regeneration kicks in, so don't use it on BH but DO use it on anything with a permanant damage.
this is countering the normal wisdom for the apo use. the rationale is that the vampires are extremly key to this team, esp when leveled up, so take no risks with health and safety on the apo there ;-) ofcourse second half BH, you can debate it, but its though choises. Basicly you can treat your apo as a one off extra regen, it helps the mindset

use the lineman, possibly giving them wrestle over block as roadsigns, so move them upfield where you want to end up.
remember a down or stunned lineman can be bitten with no problem.

i think this is all very basic advice.


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 Post subject: Re: Vampire rookie coach, Starting Roster NTTB
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:48 pm 
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sirsebstar wrote:
you can treat your apo as a one off extra regen, it helps the mindset

This.

Cash/inducements > FF > AC/CL in my book.

Apo + 20k Treasury is a good way to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Vampire rookie coach, Starting Roster NTTB
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:08 am 
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mattgslater wrote:
sirsebstar wrote:
you can treat your apo as a one off extra regen, it helps the mindset

This.

Cash/inducements > FF > AC/CL in my book.

Apo + 20k Treasury is a good way to go.


Can you elaborate on the rationale behind this rule of thumb?

In this case I would prefer 2FF as it helps with FAME which has a positive impact on ± 36% of the kick-offs. 2 FF is something that will never die and can repay itself through FAME +1 in only two games. Furthermore I think Vampires are a team which has a big benefit from getting more TRR during the game. As a normal TRR is worth 70k anything lower than this cap is potentially a big win.

Lastly, as I understand that stocking up some Thralls is the most important, I don't see why I need cash in the Bank. I rather take the risk of not being able to by an extra Thrall after the first game but having the small FF boost to get more FAME and get the extra cash anyways.

On this rule of thumb, should a Vampire coach value AC/CL higher and thus buy it as soon as he has 20k to spare?

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 Post subject: Re: Vampire rookie coach, Starting Roster NTTB
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:14 pm 
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in a perpetual league the trick is to keep TV down, hence try for low ff as that is regarded as bloat. a 1-0 or 2-1 win does not leave much room for fame to play its part. i dont always agree with that, but from a point of tv managment its wise to not inflate it.
FF dont often have abig impact on the fame roll since either one is rarely equal in the dice, it only matters when the difference is smal enough... but if can have impact,. value on the pitch is more highly valuated though.

in my own league i use AC,CL as a way to offset the FF difference more cheaply, we can be 10 FF apart and still gain the free trr.
I would not do this from the start, but sometime its an idea. sometimes just to deny the other the reroll is enough to win.


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 Post subject: Re: Vampire rookie coach, Starting Roster NTTB
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:31 pm 
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I play an experienced team at low TV, and a high FF is just TV you can't spend on other stuff. Sure, winning +2 FAME matters once in awhile, it helps protect my guys from thrown rocks and stuff, but it's not even money.

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What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.


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 Post subject: Re: Vampire rookie coach, Starting Roster NTTB
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 12:20 pm 
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This week I started a Vampire roster on fumbbl to get the feeling of them.
Guess what happened at the gate? Both rolled 10 but my opponent had 2 FF. I know, lucky right?
But as my team will be in a fixed league 2 FF is hardly lost and TV isn't as important as in Ranked.
The game went quite well, taking in fact the Throw a rock on the first kick-off, that nearly killed a Vamp. Thank god for Regeneration! I miss clicked because of some scrambling bug in the client.
Further more, the vampires managed to hurt themselves on both down vs skinks. But did I mention Regeneration?
Lucky for that miss click so I had my Apoth for a second true death.
Wow it was a intense match and learned the hard way that vampires may never give up the centre, unless they most certainly can get to the ball.

With thick skull on thralls , I think that I could manage play-off with the vampires. Unless regeneration let's me down.

Vampires are the blood of this team.
And yes I hope to get a pass Vampire! Because MA 6 isn't the bomb.

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 Post subject: Re: Vampire rookie coach, Starting Roster NTTB
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:35 pm 
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Hey there folks and I am back for some advice on how to progress with Vampires.

I have just won the first game in 6 matches and have the following line-up:

Vamp Blodge SPP 29
Vamp Block SPP 11
Vamp *Double SPP 6
Vamp SPP 5

5x Rookie Thrall
1x -AG Thrall
1x Wrestle -MA Thrall
1x Kick Thrall

I have 4 TRR, 6FF, 1 AC and 1 CL
And 130k sitting in the bank.

My next match-up's are Ogres and High Elves.

--Keep in mind that our MVP is chosen by d6 : 1 nominee of opponent gets is, 2-5: nominee of head coach get's it or 6 head coach can decide freely on his roster.--

So my choice are: 1) What to do with the double skill roll? 2) What do I do with the cash on my team and 3) what is the best way of handling Ogres.

So my personal bias goes to:
1) Pass, as it allows for more pass plays and thus can speed up my scoring speed and open up options for spreading the opposition more and thus allow better Vampire play. Sadly this would mean passing up on Block or Dodge for this Vampire as his first skills.

2) Personally I consider a 5th Vampire to have more muscle and to be able to recover from Vampire injuries. I was thinking of keeping my Pass Vampire on the bench during defensive drives. But leaving 130k TV on the bench doesn't sound right either. On the other hand, having 5 Vampires on the pitch with only 5 TRR could prove difficult to manage the number of Thrall that can survive the drive.

3) I believe the best way to handle the Ogres is with enough Vampires: they have the Strength and the Agility and Hypno Gaze to take on Ogres. Where as Thralls are easy meat for the Ogres to mangle.

So I hope I can create enough of a screen between me and the Ogres. And hope some Thralls manage to survive that game.

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 Post subject: Re: Vampire rookie coach, Starting Roster NTTB
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:10 pm 
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I will start with what I always recommend when Vampires are discussed.
Without stat (or doubles?): Pro -> Dodge -> Block
My Vampires were feared! You mention worry about thralls surviving. Pro goes a long way to mitigate this. Dodge before block so that when you do BL you can get to a thrall.

On to your questions.
1) I often prefer Accurate to Pass. The 2+ at longer range has helped me more. That being said I would probably take a normal skill.
2) I think the 5th vampire is great, but since you don't have Pro it does get risky. Thralls are awful. (So wanted to say "Thralls suck," but . . .) Vampires can do amazing things. The more you have on the pitch, the more amazing things you can do (as long as you roll well). But, see 3.
3) Against Ogres, your biggest threat is losing thralls. Buy the vamp after you play the ogres. I would buy a thrall now to have a deeper bench against the ogres. I would start the game by trying to stay away from his ogres and beat on his snotlings with Block. Definitely keep your Block vamps safe from ogres. Pushing ogres off thralls is more important than moving the ball down the pitch. Later on, if you still have enough thralls, you can sacrifice Thralls to Ogres to get TD.

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 Post subject: Re: Vampire rookie coach, Starting Roster NTTB
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:04 am 
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Wow, thanks CyberedElf!

I had no clue that Pro > Dodge > Block was the right order for skills on Vamps. I always thought Pro is nice to have as it improves BL and Gaze, which is something you do fairly often but on rolls that really matter: failed action that will cause a turnover, Pro isn't great if you have a TRR left for that turn.

On the other hand, reducing the BL fails is a good thing on a Vampire team because you are facing quite bad odds of removing a Thrall from the pitch. And yes, with Thick Skull the odds are improved a lot from 41.66% to 27.77%. That is a whopping 33.33% less chance of going off, relatively of course, and 13.89% in real numbers.

On the other hand Pro does offer some redemption after the TRR is gone for those desperate times. I can see it as very good addition to a Block Vampire, as it can increase his chances to knock over on non-critical blocks.
So I'm definitely going to give all my Vamps Pro ASAP.

Now onto your answers:
1) Accurate better than Pass?
I don't know, 3+ with RR has a 88.89% of success and a 2+ has 'only' 83.33% (difference 5.56%). At 4+ this becomes 75% over 66.67% for a 3+ (difference 8.33%). You might think that at this stage the fumble rate is higher because of the -1 modifier. But actually it is both 16.67%.
So statistically speaking this is not true but given the fact that you don't throw thousands of passes it can be decided on personal preference. I prefer having an extra RR that isn't a TRR, so I can use the TRR on a more difficult catch or any other crucial roll in that turn.

2) Okay, so without Pro on the Vampires they are a liability to how long your Thralls stay in the drive. And with upping the number of Vamps on the pitch, you naturally decrease the number of Thralls to start with. Given the fact that two Vamps are on the verge of gaining an extra skill, most likely Pro. It is safer to wait of just one more game.

3) Thanks for the advice. So dodge away Vamps if I don't want to break through the Ogres and try to Blitz off an Ogre from a thrall. Protect the ball and go hunt some snotlings. It seems a lot like I need to stack my Vamps behind Thralls in a screen, so if they blitz a Thrall, I can return the block if they follow up. I have the feeling if I start to Cage up, it will be too easy for the Ogres to box me in.
I'm planning on pushing my Blodge Vamp up the field with a Thrall for blood supply. In the hope he can't be knocked down and poses a scoring threat to him. Or does this sound too risky for him to get boxed in easily and eventually be eaten by Ogres anyway?

I do need a deep bench as last game we took 6 casualties as my Vampires figuratively speaking sucked big time. Need a 2+ dodge, to break away? Sure 1 TRR 1 and hand over the ball basically.

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