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 Post subject: Orc advice for a newb!
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:29 am 
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Hey everyone!

Just starting to learn how to play Blood bowl, and have a league starting in my local store in around a week’s time. Anything I have planned so far is merely from reading online, so any advice would be a big help.

Bringing the following list (which I’m sure you’ve all seen to death!)

4 BOBs
4 Blitzers
2 Linos
1 Thrower
3 RR

10k spare.

First purchase will be an Apothecary, then an extra lino for when kicking. I’m not sure what future purchases beyond that point should be though, as apparently it’s best to keep TV as low as possible for inducements. I’m guessing a 4th re-roll is at least necessary at some point?

Are Trolls worth buying and at what point in the season? From what I’ve read Orcs biggest weakness is against developed teams with Claw, and that a big guy with regeneration is a good counter to that. Plus it’s apparently good against teams that can bash harder than me.
I’ve played a few Cyanide games with trolls, and my opinion so far is that I HATE the buggers! The fact they need babysat by another player seems like far too heavy a counterweight to me. I’ve bought the model anyway, as there’s obviously every chance I’m just too inexperienced to be able to get the best out of it! What do others think though?

Perhaps this is too broad a question, but what are the best inducements for Orcs? What’s good VS other bashing teams and what’s good v passing teams? I know there’ll be a lot of other Orc teams there so anything that can help with the mirror would be appreciated. It’s a second season as well so I’m going to be facing lots of already developed players, meaning I’ll be leaning quite heavily on inducements I think.

What are the best ways for me to deal with this much dreaded claw match up? Or am I too much of a dog to it, and better off focusing my resources elsewhere?

Finally, will I need a 4th lineman model on hand to act as a journeyman for replacing players missing games, or are Orcs capable enough to just rely on that 12th player (plus maybe troll) for the whole season?

Anything else that you think is really important to know for Orcs in a league, please do let me know.

Thanks for your help.


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 Post subject: Re: Orc advice for a newb!
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:51 am 
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List is fine. Orc throwers aren't so popular however. They're MA5 (less than the blitzer) and they don't have a lot of scope for improving (like the blitzer)

First purchase will be an Apothecary, then an extra lino for when kicking. I’m not sure what future purchases beyond that point should be though, as apparently it’s best to keep TV as low as possible for inducements. I’m guessing a 4th re-roll is at least necessary at some point?

Apo yes, RR no. I actually do like 4 RRs on a large team, but most people don't use 4 RRs anymore.

Are Trolls worth buying and at what point in the season?

Yes, they do their job well for the price. Probably get him after the Apo. Certainly before the 4th RR, and I think before an extra lino.

I’ve played a few Cyanide games with trolls, and my opinion so far is that I HATE the buggers! The fact they need babysat by another player seems like far too heavy a counterweight to me.
Well trolls shouldn't be doing too much. A turn where your troll just stands there anchoring the centre is fine. Plus a babysitter doesn't have to spend the whole turn with him. Plus plus if he's holding the centre, he'll have players around him anyway. Trolls tend not to move around too much during a game. Just don't move him needlessly, and risk failing RS.

What are the best ways for me to deal with this much dreaded claw match up?

That's a long way into the future, and on TT I doubt there will be many hardcore CPOMB teams. Plus under the new ruling, they ain't what they used to be. It's a poor match up for you, that's for sure. So if you can snipe their claw players, that would do you the world of good.

Perhaps this is too broad a question, but what are the best inducements for Orcs?

The wizard is a huge inducement. Always worth considering. Also Orcs have access to a wide and good variety of Star Players. Ripper, Morg, and the secret weapons. Secret weapons are hard to use mind. Bribes with secret weapons of course, and babes.

Finally, will I need a 4th lineman model on hand to act as a journeyman for replacing players missing games, or are Orcs capable enough to just rely on that 12th player

If you run a 12 man team, in all likelihood you'll need JM at some point. Remember you can only get them if you are running less than 11 for the next game. So....yeah, you'll probably need that extra figure. Remember though that if you have a lino out, that figure will be fine to use as your JM. Just alter your team sheet and make it clear which is the JM to your opponent.


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 Post subject: Re: Orc advice for a newb!
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:21 am 
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A differing opinion.

I use two throwers, one offense and one for defense. They are a lineman with options. With this consideration, I start:
4 BOBs
4 Blitzers
2 Throwers
1 Goblin
3 RR

From the sound of your league set up, yes Apo is good early purchase. In my league I don't get the apo until I have someone who rolled non-normal skill. (Open play, multiple teams per season)
Then troll and lineman, order depends on current needs, but usually lineman first. Another goblin before these could be considered, more on this later. 13 players with no lineman, but two goblins, isn't bad.

The threat/chance of one turn TD with throwing the goblin can be worth the cost.

Leader is probably better than the 4th RR.

Inducements
Generally in BB Wizard and bloodweiser are the best inducements. Orcs are a team that gets less use out of these than almost anyone (dwarfs come to mind).
Against low AV teams you might be better off taking chainsaw and bribes. You have to be careful playing with the chainsaw, protect him don't let your opponent block him.
Did I mention bribes? I'll mention them again. Even without them foul with the goblin(s). This is where the spare goblin comes in handy. I don't hardly foul, but one coach in my league is scary, dangerous when he can get bribes.
Even the chainsaw without bribes can make your opponent score quicker. 2-1 grind is your friend.
Against high AV there is no easy answer. As the aforementioned leaguemate says, "Roll sixes and pows."

Against high skilled teams fouling can be your friend. You risk a 40k goblin to get rid of their 4 skill player.

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 Post subject: Re: Orc advice for a newb!
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:52 am 
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If playing with just the 2016 rules there is no Wizard, so Bloodweiser and Bribes are good remaining options + special play cards, who are a bit swingy, but can be pretty strong. I would look into developing a lineman into a foul player if you get the chance to make your bribes matter more.

I am in the same situation as you are starting with the same lineup. My plan is to go apo (because my black orcs are moade of paper and I don't want to replace them) -> Troll (still need to get a good model for that, thinking about either a Hordes or a third party football one) -> Goblin (does anyone know where I can get a single one?) and then save for inducements.


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 Post subject: Re: Orc advice for a newb!
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:54 am 
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Roster is good. You don't need a Troll or a 4th reroll, but a 13th man (4th lino) is good, lets you foul more. Troll is a wash, IMO.

Try to stack the TDs on Blitzers and the MVPs (if you can pick) on the BOBs. If you can't pick your MVPs, try to feed scores to Blitzers and BOBs equally, of course targeting the guys who only need 1-3 points to skill.

Which edition are you playing? In LRB6, ClawPOMB is a scare, the answer to which is good play and lots of the good basic skills to expose and eliminate ClawPOMBers, like TacklePOMB and Guard. In 2016, you'll only face ClawMB, and that's heavy but you'll only see 1-2 of them per match, if any.

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 Post subject: Re: Orc advice for a newb!
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:23 am 
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Sorry for the delay, was buried with work! Thanks for all the responses, that's really helpful.

Yeah, its using the new rules, so no wizards unfortunately. Though maybe that benefits me more being so cage dependent!
New players are getting 2 free RRs against vets though, which I'll happily make use of :D

Teams declared from others so far are:
Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves, Chaos, Lizardmen, Orcs x3, Skaven x2, Wood Elves, High Elves, Humans x4.

Seems like a nice mix of races, but fairly bashy. I'll definitely try the Troll since I'm determined to get a better feel for him. I'm guessing he's mostly for other bashing teams when receiving though right? I'm thinking against fast/squishy teams his strength seems unnecessary and his speed + RS too much of a liability.

Thanks for those tips on bribes CyberedElf. Even without goblins, they seem way better to load up on vs low AV than babes etc.
With regard to inducements, I'm assuming multiple purchases are generally always better than a star player. Or am I wrong?

Finally, are mercenaries good for filling gaps, or is that crazy talk!? I know they're 30 extra, but a positional seems a lot better to me than a lino for plugging holes.


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 Post subject: Re: Orc advice for a newb!
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:31 am 
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Deathrain wrote:
Troll (still need to get a good model for that, thinking about either a Hordes or a third party football one)
With Hordes, you gotta be careful about the size! Most of them are huge!
Maybe look into the "favorite Troll" thread for ideas. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Orc advice for a newb!
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:49 am 
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Regash wrote:
Deathrain wrote:
Troll (still need to get a good model for that, thinking about either a Hordes or a third party football one)
With Hordes, you gotta be careful about the size! Most of them are huge!
Maybe look into the "favorite Troll" thread for ideas. :wink:


Thanks for the suggestion, but I went to Impact and got one of their imps (as Goblin) and Willy miniatures troll#1 already. Looking forward to them a lot!


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 Post subject: Re: Orc advice for a newb!
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:58 am 
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nyahoi wrote:
I'll definitely try the Troll since I'm determined to get a better feel for him. I'm guessing he's mostly for other bashing teams when receiving though right? I'm thinking against fast/squishy teams his strength seems unnecessary and his speed + RS too much of a liability.

He works against both. The thing is not using him to block too much until he has the [block] skill. The other thing I see a fair amount on new players is blocking in the wrong order on the Line of Scrimmage (LOS) meaning that the troll (or other big guys) only get 2 dice blocks. Especially against teams who don't have players with block on the LOS (when you're receiving) you need to make sure that you're setting the troll up with a three dice block (two assists against a ST3 opponent) or being happy to just leave him marking a player.

nyahoi wrote:
Finally, are mercenaries good for filling gaps, or is that crazy talk!? I know they're 30 extra, but a positional seems a lot better to me than a lino for plugging holes.

Mercs are fine for replacing injured positionals, if you've the budget. The fact that you can also put a skill on them can help. By the very nature of them being 30 more expensive though, they just aren't as good bang for their buck. It might be worth considering for a lineorc too, but only if you were going to add a skill on (dirty player, or block journeyman is worth considering, if you've the budget in inducements).

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 Post subject: Re: Orc advice for a newb!
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:29 am 
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mawph wrote:
nyahoi wrote:
I'll definitely try the Troll since I'm determined to get a better feel for him. I'm guessing he's mostly for other bashing teams when receiving though right? I'm thinking against fast/squishy teams his strength seems unnecessary and his speed + RS too much of a liability.

He works against both. The thing is not using him to block too much until he has the [block] skill. The other thing I see a fair amount on new players is blocking in the wrong order on the Line of Scrimmage (LOS) meaning that the troll (or other big guys) only get 2 dice blocks. Especially against teams who don't have players with block on the LOS (when you're receiving) you need to make sure that you're setting the troll up with a three dice block (two assists against a ST3 opponent) or being happy to just leave him marking a player.

nyahoi wrote:
Finally, are mercenaries good for filling gaps, or is that crazy talk!? I know they're 30 extra, but a positional seems a lot better to me than a lino for plugging holes.

Mercs are fine for replacing injured positionals, if you've the budget. The fact that you can also put a skill on them can help. By the very nature of them being 30 more expensive though, they just aren't as good bang for their buck. It might be worth considering for a lineorc too, but only if you were going to add a skill on (dirty player, or block journeyman is worth considering, if you've the budget in inducements).


Thanks for the help. I still cant stop seeing a Troll as mainly an unnecessary 5th black orc that needs babysat! Happy to prove myself wrong though :D. Plus they do look damn cool!


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 Post subject: Re: Orc advice for a newb!
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:56 pm 
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nyahoi wrote:
I still cant stop seeing a Troll as mainly an unnecessary 5th black orc that needs babysat!

After 200+ games with Orcs on FUMBBL, about half with a Troll and half without, this is my opinion of Trolls. I don't use a Troll in the ultra-high-TV NBFL, even. (I did for a season, even drafted him with Block and Guard, regretted it. He cost me games and I just missed the playoffs.)

The worst part is that babysitting a Troll isn't enough. Even if all your RS rolls are 2+, they tend to fail at the worst times. Even if you move him first and block with him last and do everything else right.

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What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.


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 Post subject: Re: Orc advice for a newb!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:42 am 
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What are people's opinions on Dirty Player for Orc linemen? I keep reading about it being good on linemen, but is Block or Guard not maybe better?

The way I see it (in my very limited experience!) is that fouling is great, but something I mostly only want to do when already ahead in body count, due to risk of ejection. Therefore I see Dirty Player as a 'win-more' kind of a skill. At it's best when you're already ahead, but helps keep you ahead. Plus there's always a good chance that the most optimal player to foul (can give most assists to/has claw etc) cant be reached by the player with Dirty Player. Whereas Block or Guard seem far more consistently relevant during the entire game.

Am I wrong, and how? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Orc advice for a newb!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:05 am 
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Well it has to do with being cost effective. Firstly, guard is a double on a lino. Where as it's a regular skill for 9 of your players. Secondly, block is on 4 of your players and should be the first skill on another 4 (bobs).

Both bobs and blitzers are better than linos. So basically by giving one block /guard although good is expensive, less effective duplication.

Think how expensive your team will be with double skill linos. It's much better to skill the more effective postionals. So with dirty player you have a lino that can offer the team something that the S access guys can't.

Personally I'd say a kicker is more important, but a DP maybe viable.


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 Post subject: Re: Orc advice for a newb!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:46 am 
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I have not seen fouling to be a useful strategy unless you have a bribe. I agree it's a "win-more" skill, generally. As harvestmouse suggests, using your linos for something the rest of the team isn't doing is useful. I would probably give them wrestle first. (Kick is not a bad option, but Orcs have a hard time capitalizing on it.)

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 Post subject: Re: Orc advice for a newb!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:05 am 
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harvestmouse wrote:
Well it has to do with being cost effective. Firstly, guard is a double on a lino. Where as it's a regular skill for 9 of your players. Secondly, block is on 4 of your players and should be the first skill on another 4 (bobs).

Both bobs and blitzers are better than linos. So basically by giving one block /guard although good is expensive, less effective duplication.

Think how expensive your team will be with double skill linos. It's much better to skill the more effective postionals. So with dirty player you have a lino that can offer the team something that the S access guys can't.

Personally I'd say a kicker is more important, but a DP maybe viable.


I'm an idiot! I was thinking Guard was a General skill :D
Surely the greater effect of Block over Dirty Player trumps the fact there are already players with it though no? I can certainly see a case for Kick over Dirty Player as well though now you've mentioned it!


CyberedElf wrote:
I have not seen fouling to be a useful strategy unless you have a bribe. I agree it's a "win-more" skill, generally. As harvestmouse suggests, using your linos for something the rest of the team isn't doing is useful. I would probably give them wrestle first. (Kick is not a bad option, but Orcs have a hard time capitalizing on it.)


I was just thinking, maybe it's so vital to have anything that helps remove Claw players, its worth carrying solely for that? Wrestle definitely seems like a nice compliment alongside Block alright.


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