Which team would you take?

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plasmoid
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Which team would you take?

Post by plasmoid »

Hi Guys,
hoping to get some feedback on my tournament rules. Which team would you take?

Tournament uses 8 tiers - as (IMO) most tier-bonus tournaments tend to favour whichever team is at the top of their tier.
Tournament has been held once before, with good results.
This year, I've added rules for skill stacking and skill diversity.

Anything looking overly delicious?
http://plasmoids.dk/Copenhagen%20Parity ... 202019.pdf
Cheers
Martin

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Re: Which team would you take?

Post by rolo »

This is an excellent ruleset for Dwarves. 1100k buys the standard 12 player, 3 RR, Apoth roster. 240k bonus gold buys 8 of them Guard. Or maybe "only" 6-7 Guards and 1-2 MB. I don't see any incentive to make a "diverse skill selection".

You can also make the cookie cutter, tournament standard Lizardman roster with 6 Block Saurus.

I don't think you'll see many Big Guys with Block, 70k is punishingly expensive. That's bad for teams which like to skill big guys (Norse, Daemons, and I think especially Pact).

I'd be intrigued by Slann in this ruleset, especially if you can manage to get Slibli on the roster. But I don't think they benefit much from your skill rules. They start with a bunch of secondary skills and benefit from taking core skills.
Probably Humans benefit a lot more in this ruleset, since they start with the overpriced core skills and can benefit from the discounted secondary skills. 300k buys a lot.

Chaos will probably be scary, just because 330k buys 11 (!) premium skills and allows stacking. 11 skills is a lot. Every Warrior could get Block, you can get a Block, Extra Arms, Sure Hands ball carrier (which is serious overkill), and still have enough for 2 ClawMB killer Beastmen. Or just 11 players with Block (boring). Minotaur gets no skills (if taken).

I think in this ruleset, for bog-boring power gaming I'd play Dwarves, for some fun games (but probably not the optimal roster) I'd go with Humans.

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Re: Which team would you take

Post by Oventa »

Hmn can’t really say.
Need to think aloud to digest this.

Comparing this setup with others:

Most common classic tier 3 setup
Tier 1 x
Tier 2 x+40k
Tier 3 x+70k

World Cup dornbirn Tier over all 3 days :
Tier 1 x
Tier 2 x+50k
Tier 3 x+100k
Tier 4 x+120k

Plasmoid Tier:
Tier 0 x
Tier 3 x (dwarves) + 90k
Tier 6 (Chaos) x + 180k
(but good skills cost 30k instead of 20k)

So Chaos vs dwarves seems ok to me, as 3 more good skills seems like a good difference to me.
Still between tier 0 and tier 6 there is a difference of 180k , which translate at least again into 6 skills difference.
I can’t imagine anyone playing undead like this.

So I think tier 5 and 6 looks interesting.
Tier 4 the khemri,
The Chaos renegade not so, because of the cost to skill the big guys
So khemri, high elves, nurgle, human , Chaos Chosen , Slann, underworld?
Stacking does not cost extra, so high elves or Chaos I guess, depending on the mood.

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Smeborg
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Re: Which team would you take?

Post by Smeborg »

Hi Martin -

I find the whole concept of tiers rather odd and comical, not least because Chaos and Slann are among my highest performing tournament teams. I would really fancy my chances with either team in your proposed format. But that's just me, eh, if the data is telling you they're bad, they must be bad, right?

Both teams have lovely base rosters at TV110, onto which up to 11 skills can be grafted. Here are 2 simple ideas OTOH:

SLANN: 4 x Catchers, 8 x Linefrogs, 5 x RRs, Apoth
---------------------------------------------------------
Catchers: 2 with Guard, 2 with Dodge
Linefrogs: 1 with Wrestle/Tackle, 4 with Wrestle, 1 with Kick, 1 with S-Ball

CHAOS: 1 x Minotard, 3 x Warriors, 8 x Beastmen, 2 x RRs, Apoth
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Tard: Jugs
Warriors: 1 with Block/S-Hands, 2 with Block
Beastmen: 1 with Frenzy/Jugs, 4 with Wrestle

That is without paying much attention to skill stacks and exotic combos.

Also OTOH Halflings and possibly Gobbos look like quite high performers in this format. Big Guys with Block/something (e.g. B-Tackle) and little guys with D-Player/S-Git (only 60,000).

I haven't played Khorne yet in a tourney, but I might fancy them in this format (they seem happy at TV110).

Vamps will rather enjoy being able to stack skills, notwithstanding the restrictions. Ditto Underworld, especially mutant combos..

I have not explored the many restrictions, but I note that you allow Tackle+M-Blow, but not M-Blow+Claw. Favours bash vs. AG, but disadvantages mutants vs. bash? These things will happen once you introduce restrictions. A bit like tinkering with paper/scissors/rock.

Hope that helps, and all the best with your tourney.

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Re: Which team would you take?

Post by kyrre »

How do you figure humans are lower tier than renegades? No skills outside of the goblin and the big guys vs the starting skills of blitzers, throwers and, catchers.

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Re: Which team would you take?

Post by Smeborg »

kyrre wrote:How do you figure humans are lower tier than renegades? No skills outside of the goblin and the big guys vs the starting skills of blitzers, throwers and, catchers.
In my experience, Chaos Renegades (Pact) are quite good in many tournament formats. 3 Big Guys in the hands of a skilled coach can be quite intimidating. I would rate them above Humies, with the important proviso that it depends on format.

However, in this format, I suspect that Chaos Renegades will underperform, as the skills that they would normally take on the Ogre and Troll (namely Block, if allowed, failing which Guard) are quite expensive due to the Loner penalty (70,000 or 50,000 a pop). Compared to teams without Loner Big Guys, this squanders 40,000 to 80,000 of their "bonus". However, they could still manage to get 7-8 skills in all, since some very suitable skills are at a discount. Examples:

- Jugs on a Minotard (20,000)
- 2-Heads on a Gobbo (20,000)

Hope that helps.

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Re: Which team would you take?

Post by Smeborg »

Martin - following on from my above post, I wonder if the few teams who have non-Loner Big Guys will benefit "disproportionately" from this.

Namely: Halflings, Ogres and Khemri (Tomb Guardians are in practice non-loner Big Guys, in the proposed format you could take 4 of them with Block).

Hope that helps.

But in response to your simple question: "Which team would you take?", my answer is as above: Chaos or Slann. I would expect to have a good shot at winning the tourney with either team (hint: they win tourneys without handicaps in their favour).

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Re: Which team would you take?

Post by plasmoid »

Hi Kyrre, Smeborg, Oventa and Rolo,
thank you for taking the time to look over the rules and write a response.
I intend to reply to your thoughts and questions, but I feel I need to clarify two things first.

1) A 1-day tournament with these tier rules (but not the skill rules) was held in april 2018, and it was a good mixed field of participants.
There was (IMO) too many Pact teams - and I may have overnerfed them as a result. I've moved them up one tier (-30K), but more harshly, the new rules making gold doubles on big Guys very expensive.
By the way, 3 teams went undefeated that day (4 games): IIRC Lizardmen, Bretonnians and Underworld.

2) The tiers are math derived. Even if I admit that the math is only an indication - this is why I hope for some feedback.
I have projected win percentages for each race, based on all NAF games from 2011 onwards (I'll explain the finer points if anybody is curious). With 5 skills as the baseline, I then estimate that 1 extra skill (30K) roughly equals a 2% win percentage bump.
That's what put each team in their tier.

I know that "a bonus skill" may be more valuable to some teams than others. And I also know that my data were generated under a different skill pricing/stacking system. Which is why 3 teams have been bumped up 1 tier. And why I'm asking for feedback.

3) I don't expect the skill system to revolutionize skill selection. The power skills are still the power skills.
To my mind, it does 2 Things: A) It allows some (restricted) stacking, which I can see certain teams at least considering.
B) If you think you might get decent value from a 20K skill, then suddenly you'll get two more 20K skills - i.e. 3 skills in total for the same price as 2 normal "gold" skills. I think some teams and coaches will give that a shot. Hopefully.

Cheers
Martin

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Re: Which team would you take?

Post by plasmoid »

Hi Smeborg,
I find the whole concept of tiers rather odd and comical, not least because Chaos and Slann are among my highest performing tournament teams. I would really fancy my chances with either team in your proposed format. But that's just me, eh, if the data is telling you they're bad, they must be bad, right?
I sense you're a bit skeptical :wink:
While I agree with the fact that certain coaches have great skill with certain races, yes, I do believe that some teams are demonstrably weaker than others.
Case in point, the Eurobowl. 176 world class coaches in the main tournament. The combined number of Chaos and Slann team was 1, AFAIK.
(hint: they win tourneys without handicaps in their favour).
True. And sometimes linemen complete a Long Bomb. That doesn't mean that Quick Passes aren't easier :wink:
(I don't mean to be snarky. I just do think that teams are not equal).

Cheers
Martin

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Re: Which team would you take?

Post by Oventa »

plasmoid wrote: 2) The tiers are math derived.
...
With 5 skills as the baseline, I then estimate that 1 extra skill (30K) roughly equals a 2% win percentage bump.
That's what put each team in their tier.
Thanks for sharing this.
Again interesting and i am not at all opposed to more tiers, just see the issues with the resulting final range. So not sure the rule above is valid to be linear.
Simply if one guy has 5 skills and the other 11, in that match up, I think this is more than 12% win percentage bump, while for less skill difference this may be valid.

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Re: Which team would you take?

Post by plasmoid »

Hi Oventa,
I agree that this is not linear, and can never be linear.
I mean +5 skills is very different depending on whether it is 0 skills vs 5 skills, 5 vs 10, 10 vs 15 - 40 vs 45?

It is worth noting, that the way this works, the +2% bonus for a skill is actually doubled, beceause if, say, Brets vs Undead is 50-50, and Brets got a bonus skill, it would move them to 52% and thereby the Undead in the Match-up to 48%. So in that sense each skill is worth 4%. Which I think is pretty generous.

The way we arrived at that is admittedly gut feeling. I asked a handful of experienced coaches "If you're playing 1 team against the same team, but your opponent gets 5 skills while you get 10, what do you think your win chance would be. Everybody said around 60-40. So that part isn't math based at all. But at least we've managed to bring the teams so much closer together, that for the tournament we held back in april, there were teams from all over the tiers :orc:

But.... I'm not sure it isn't about right for 5 skills vs 10 or 11.
Personally I'm more in doubt concerning a small skill advantage. 5 vs 6 is probably fine. But for 10 vs 11, I don't think that one skill is worth that much… (?)

Cheers
Martin

PS, it should be noted that I put everything into a massive Excel sheet, and if the skill bonus works as intended, then all teams come out at around 50-51% over all, while the tier 3 teams come out around 40%.

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Re: Which team would you take?

Post by Smeborg »

Martin - I have mentioned before in a league context that I am not a fan of attempts to "equalise" the races in BB. I think such attempts are bound to create unforeseen distortions, and the process becomes never ending (example: your attempts to "nerf" Chaos Pact).

Although I participate in "tiered" tournaments (currently fashionable), I prefer tourneys where all races are treated more or less "equally". Having said that, there is no ruleset which can possibly do that (examples: low or high TV favours some teams above others, allowing doubles ditto, skill rich vs. skill poor formats ditto). I suspect historic data is of limited value for this reason.

But as long as you are getting a good turnout for your tourneys, and coaches are having a good time, then that's all good.

If your aim is to give hours of fun to coaches trying to find the "best" roster, that's fine with me too.

Does your format attract rookie coaches, or is it deliberately aimed at an experienced group?

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Re: Which team would you take?

Post by plasmoid »

Hi Smeborg,
I do Indeed think we see tiering very differently - and that's all good.
Although I participate in "tiered" tournaments (currently fashionable), I prefer tourneys where all races are treated more or less "equally".
Blood Bowl is a great game, and non-tiered tournaments can be perfectly enjoyable. I just personally much prefer the variation and challenges that comes with a more mixed range of opponents. The recent EuroBowl was no doubt a Triumph, but personally I think it is a shame that the selection of races attending was so very narrow.

I like to stir that up. I love the extra challenge of suddenly facing Khemri or Slann or High Elfs. Similarly with my tweak to the skill rules - I don't expect to (or want to) revolutionize how BB is played. But I like the little surprises.
I suspect historic data is of limited value for this reason.
This is of course true. But I do think that there is a gold standard (1.1mil, 6 skills) which is at the core of a lot of the data. Other than that, the slow increase of tiered tournaments just Means that Things are even more uneven than the data shows.
I have mentioned before in a league context that I am not a fan of attempts to "equalise" the races in BB. I think such attempts are bound to create unforeseen distortions, and the process becomes never ending (example: your attempts to "nerf" Chaos Pact).
IMO, only if one strives for (unattainable) perfection. I don't. I try for improvement of the situation.
Dode said the same thing about NTBB. I think it went through 5 iterations, with fewer and fewer changes. Not that NTBB is now somehow "perfect". But changes don't have to be endless.

I'm not yet convinced that Pact are overnerfed. We'll see. As you say, they're decent tournament team in the first place.
What happened, actually, is that while discussing data with some very experienced coaches, we realized that when assessing team power and tier rules for the EuroBowl, we would assign signifiantly more value to a "doubles" skill, if the team had a big guy. It was (IMO) a disproportionately big advantage (to put Block on the big guy) which had not been factored into the first version of these rules. I think the new price hike is more correct.

You're absolutely right that if I wanted to iron out every kink, this would be endless. But I don't think that it will be.

So:
But as long as you are getting a good turnout for your tourneys, and coaches are having a good time, then that's all good.
Thanks. The first one was an absolute blast.
If your aim is to give hours of fun to coaches trying to find the "best" roster, that's fine with me too.
You could. But I don't think that you need to. The top teams can pretty much be played same as always. But you could give the skill selection a twist, if you wanted. Or you could take one of the non-traditional power teams, and have a pretty good run. I think.
Does your format attract rookie coaches, or is it deliberately aimed at an experienced group?
It's not deliberately aimed at an experienced Group.
I think the advice on team selection that a rookie could find online would still be very valid. Lizardmen with 6 block? Still good. But more experienced coaches could experiment more. And I do think that if a rookie showed up with "random team x that I like", then they wouldn't be stuck with a horrible choice if they showed up with a team like, say, High Elfs or Vampires, which normally are sub-par.

Cheers :D
Martin

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Re: Which team would you take?

Post by plasmoid »

Just to summarize the teams mentioned:
Rolo: Dwarfs (Lizards, Slann, Humans, Chaos)
Oventa: Khemri High Elf, Nurgle, Human. Chaos, Slann, Underworld
Smeborg: Slann, Chaos, Halfling, Underworld, (Ogre?, Khemri?)
Cheers
Martin

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Re: Which team would you take?

Post by Smeborg »

I might change that to: Chaos, Slann, Halfling (Khemri?, Ogre?).

Pro is a possible doubles skill worth considering on some Loner Big Guys, especially the more active ones. "Only" 40,000 to give the player the equivalent of a Team Re-roll each turn. e.g. Pro+Break Tackle (+60,000). Pro may also work as an occasional non-doubles choice for teams with expensive RRs, or with skills that have no RR skill (Leap). But no doubt the scheme is full of such wrinkles.

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