Skaven - Next Steps

[Toonami]

Hi Y'all,

First post though I seem to have read a lot.

BB fever has ripped through a specific part of Derby recently and we've all been playing TT BB2016.
We're through a pre-season sort league and just getting into our stride on the first league 'proper'.
My opponents are 6 x bash (Orc/Chaos/Dwarves/Khemri), 1xSkaven, 1xDElfs, and 1xWElfs (?).
I've played one Chaos the Welfs and the Skaven.

I've got a couple of guys (an SV and the +MA GR) about to skill (1 spp each*) and I just want to run my general skill selection past you guys and see what your views are as to what normal or doubles you feel would sit best for next skills.

1 - StormVermin - Mighty Blow, Guard
2 - *Stormvermin - Mighty Blow, Guard
3 - *GutterRunner - Block, +MA
4 - GutterRunner - Block, Big Hand
5 - GutterRunner - +AG, Wrestle
6 - GutterRunner - Wrestle, Strip Ball
7 - Thrower - Block, (Niggle)
8 - Thrower - Accurate, Block
5 x LineRats - No SPP

In my own head I'm thinking (normal/doubles):
1/2 Tackle/Claw.. though I could be tempted by Frenzy
3 SS or Sprint/Guard
4 SH or SS/Two heads
5 Leap or Tackle or SH/?
6 Tackle/Two Heads
7 Kick/Dodge
8 Safe Pass/Extra Arms

With two sets of Guard having arrived on the scene now I may try to develop the line rats.. but only as far as DP and or wrestle.

What do you guys/gals think?

[rolo]

Stormvermin should take Claw on a double, otherwise Tackle or Stand Firm or Frenzy.

+MA Gutter Runner gets Sprint and becomes the dreaded idiot-proof one-turner. There's really no other choice.

[Toonami]

I'll be honest I thought everyone here would say SS or something with more utility on the GR.. But I am an idiot and the idea of not having to put constipation.. I mean focus face on when trying to work out OTTD attempts certainly appeals!

On the SV if I were to to take one Frenzy would you go Stand firm first or 2nd?

[rolo]

Hard to say, both are good. Just having Frenzy on your team is sometimes better than actually using it, because it scares opponents away from the sidelines. It's the more "Active" skill, great if you blitz with him a lot, but sometimes gets you in trouble. Stand Firm is more passive, makes him great for a cage corner or line of scrimmage, with Stand Firm and Guard, sometimes the best thing to do is just walk to the most irritating position and stay there.

Also looking over your wishlist, I do not recommend Safe Throw on your thrower. It only helps in some very specific situations which don't come up often, and even then, it's a 4+ roll with AG3 to cancel out an interception. You'll get more use out of Leader, Block, Kick, maybe even Fend (for when he inevitably gets hit) or Tackle (for when you field him on defense).
And if you want a fun passing skill which you won't use often but which can be game-changing when you do ... consider Hail Mary Pass. If you recover the ball deep in your own half, run the Gutter Runners forward, then sling it out between the Runners and the End Zone. Or if your offense gets bogged down ...

[Toonami]

Thank you, food for thought! Immovable Guard would appear to be a horrible problem for an opponent to solve and would be a stepping stone towards "safe frenzy surfing".

In defence I tend to have the blitzers throw one or two blitzes whilst my GRs get into position then just throw GRs at any chink in my opponent's cages.

In offence a blitzer hopefully becomes one of the rear spots on the cage and blitzes forwards to create gaps for the cage to move through. I tend to have a thrower in the middle for S3 and SH until an opponent lays a tackle zone him then it's hand off to a GR who are 2 or 3 of the rest of the cage and then original cage births a sideline cage of GRs who are typically past the LoS and very hard to stop.

I know it may be daft but I'd really like to develop one of the Throwers as a runner option apart from the gutters. Fend would seem to fit that roll nicely. I've already got a few TDs on both Throwers when opponents haven't been able to stop the original cage and I've run it through all the way.

Sorry.. Giving you life story.

Safe Throw made the list due to a couple of horrific fumbles I suffered recently (has to be said not on a Pass thrower though) but I like the idea of last ditch Tackle marking. I understand the Hail Mary stratagem has been used to great effect by the other Skaven team in the league but I dunno if I can't cover the length of the pitch in a couple of 2plus rolls I'm not doing my job right!

Where I'm really stumped is the AG5.. Do I go Tackle next and put him in for 4plus cage rushes or Leap, sail in there on a 2 plus but with only a 1 in 9 chance (?) to sack? Or make him a 2nd ball hawk with SHs giving me some strip ball protection on my G force whilst I'm at it?

Sorry if any of this comes off as naïve. I played a bit of 3rd gen and probably have 10-15 games under my belt this time around.

[rolo]

"What to do with an AG5 Gutter Runner" is absolutely a luxury problem, whatever you go for, enjoy it!

Personally I'd take Leap. Combined with your one-turner, that makes your offense essentially unstoppable and gives him serious mobility on defense. Defense isn't only about cage-busting either, sometimes the ball gets fumbled and then BAM, there you are.
And he already has wrestle, so even 2 dice against will often be 1/4 chance of a sack. Looking at the rest of your league, you'll be facing more ball carriers without Dodge than with, most likely.

[harvestmouse]

The team has badly lacked tackle. Tackle won't help you so much now, but if there isn't a season reset you'll need to add some......badly.

1-2 add claw on doubles. On regular get some tackle (unless there's an end of season reset).
3 is a one turner. So sprint and sure feet. OTT can never be too easy, so make it as easy as possible.
4 is difficult. I'm guessing his use is more lose ball pick ups than a retriever. So probably SS.
5 diving tackle or sure hands. Either are a pain in the ass for the oppo.
6 tackle

Side note on 4-6. Add that 4th Gutter asap. 5 and 6 are skilled to get in there to retrieve balls. However as your league is bash heavy they aren't going to last long by being in a melee. Playing in a perpetual league is looking at the big picture. When is your time? If it isn't this season, play with caution.

7 bye bye
8 tackle. A tackle thrower shakes off blodge side step game ruiners.

[Toonami]

Thanks Rolo, I hadn't considered the pros of Leap on offence (which even as I write it seems very daft.. I've kind of gotten used to GRs being able to score with their out of the box skillset). I'm set now. If I got doubles is there anything this AG5 guy could use that's more useful than Leap?

Thanks also Harvest Mouse, I have got 4 gutters 3 to 6 in the list. I haven't yet felt like I missed Tackle too much yet, I've faced mainly bash and I'm only now starting to see Blodgers turn up on those teams but I totally agree.. If I want my Blitzers to reliably put key oppo players in hospital they need to have it and I can totally see the use of a tackle thrower on deep D thanks to you and Rolo. How come you don't like 7 the niggle thrower? AV 7 and niggle not worth developing? I was going to develop him and hope to shake the niggle between seasons.

[harvestmouse]

My bad on the gutter. The problem with throwers is that they don't develop well, especially on Skaven. Where can you take him? He only has G/P access. There's a limit to what is useful in both of those brackets.

A thrower has ma7 compared to ma9 of a gutter and AG3 compared to AG4. Essentially this means a Gutter can do a thrower's job better than a thrower unless you accurate/strong arm the thrower, which is a bit of a waste on a team that plays the running game. This is a downside to the game unfortunately.

So unless you're playing at high TV ( though it seems the case you will be) you won't need throwers. I'm all for saying F.U. to TV management and having 2 throwers. However essentially one is a luxury, 2 is excess. 2 and one being niggled can never be recommended. LoS duty for me (with his block) until somebody does the 'shotgun round the back of the barn' job for you....unless you're willing to it yourself? I guess with TT though, having the figures does dictate using positionals.

One side point. The amount of bash in the league could become a problem for the league. Even with the modern rules (e.g. modern handicapping and journey men) I still think rock/paper balance needs to be maintained.

[Toonami]

Yeah, there is a very high proportion of players who haven't played before and I think as a result they're leaning on high AV and ST as a crutch as they learn the game so hopefully we'll see more finesse teams as the league matures, for my part I've found the high MA of Skaven has typically been able to hide my own shortcomings though I have been extremely lucky in only having to fire line rats up to now. The one coach who has a wealth of experience is top of the league with a orcs and gobbos team he's keeping around the 1.1m mark. I face him in back to back matches on sat and will be giving up around 400k inducements. (Urgh). On the flipside however my two losses (from 15, I think) have been from big Chaos. Without an effective wizard I haven't really given much thought to TV management though I will likely have to.

Thank you for your time and advice. I'll give some thought to Thrower 2. He may have to be a Kick caddy until I can skill a line rat.

[Toonami]

I'm unsure of the double post rules here but I just wanted to update on what I took and how it went. It went well 3-1 vs the very low TV Orcs and 4-2 vs a low TV DE team.

I took Tackle on the StormVermin and Sprint on the plus MA GutterRunner.
Tackle paid massive dividends in the DE game (First Blitz CAS on his only WitchElf! Sideline cages all game baby!).
Sprint not so much, he took hotpot and took all my TRR for the first (kicking) and a OTTD opportunity didn't appear.

From the SPPfor the 2nd game I ignored a double on the plus AG GutterRunner and took Leap. I thought hard about Gaurd but even though it could of been hella useful I liked the benefits of Leap better and if I had a choice I'd prefer it on a SS blodger rather than Wrodger.

Plan remains..
Tackle on Strip Ball, Wrodger GutterRunner
Side Step on Big Hand, Blodger GutterRunner
..but I've had a rethink in regards the other StormVermin.
With 2 x Orc, 1 x Khemri, 2 x Dwarf left to play and one of those Dwarf matches on Mon I'm thinking I may try and skill him on that match and take Dauntless (if no Claw).
I've got a decent bench now but 4-5 S4s or above can overwhelm me (my only losses have been against big Chaos).
Knocking a few of those Black Orcs, Tomb Guardians, and Trolls on their butts with relative ease very much appeals.

[harvestmouse]

The sprint gutter shouldn't actually play that much now. Possibly as a ball carrier on offensive drives, not at all on defensive drives. He's kind of like a 'special team' in American football. Comes on at the end and gets you that OTTD score. So if games are not tight, then no his sprint won't be of much use.

Dauntless doesn't sound a good idea to me. He should be searching for the softer targets, not getting into battles with black orcs. Accept you are going to lose the block war unless you outplay in those matches. If you're worried about it that much, you might want to consider the rogre...particularly as you don't have a frenzy player.

[Toonami]

Yeah, I've already started sitting him on my kicking drives. I've manage to skill a Line Rat with Kick so I'm looking for Leader on the other Thrower and have him and the natural one turner work as a pair off the bench on T8 if needed.

I've got to say I'm really feeling giant slaying (Dauntless) or surfing oppo (Frenzy) fluff on the StormVermin

I'm sorry, I just can't see myself going all Rogre with it. I find the idea of Loner's abhorrent ("Wait.. you want me to roll to see if I can re-roll those dice I rolled? Nope, nope, nope.")