Wild Animal - Worse than Bone Head and Really Stupid?

[garion]

Wild Animal - For me if the worst of the 3 nega-traits by a long long way and here is why -
basics -
Bone Head
Pro - can do anything on a 2+
Con - on a 1, they lose their Tackle Zone

Really Stupid
Pro - if supported properly can do anything on a 2+
Pro - it is the cheapest Negatrait -Really Stupid subtracts 20k from the price of the player
Con - if they become isolated they can only take an action on 4+
Con - on a 1, they lose their Tackle Zone

Wild Animal
Pros - They never lose their Tackle zone
Con - They have to block or Blitz to reliably take an action/cant move reliably
Con - on a 1 they do nothing
Con - if they are knocked over they have to blitz to stand up or will only do so 50% of the time.
Con - if isolated they are out the drive unless you are willing to risk a blitz to bring them back in towards the action or get lucky 4+
Con - It is costed at the same price as Bone Head in the player pricing formula

What we learned from LRB4
During LRB4 all big guys were arguably under costed. 100 for the troll, 110 the Minotaur and 120 the Ogre. This made Big Guy selection in teams pretty much ubiquitous in this edition. During the transition from LRB4 through lrb5 to CRP the Big Guys prices were increased so that inclusion in squad was a tactical consideration rather than a must. For the most part this was successful, more on this later.

In LRB 4 however the rules about Big Guy selection was different -
Minotaur could play for - Chaos Dwarf, Norse, and Chaos
Ogre could play for - Chaos, Human, Norse
Troll could play for - Orc, Goblin, Chaos Dwarf and Chaos

During this era the Minotaur's presence was almost non existent. He would appear on teams if the coach was new, or if a coach was playing with a theme based team (i.e. an intentionally sub optimal build) for the most part.
So even when he was cheaper than an Ogre, and only 10k more than a Troll he was ignored. Chaos Dwarf teams always selected a Troll. Norse teams would mostly have Ogres and Chaos teams would largely use Trolls or occasionally an Ogre. Skaven would often, though not always, get round to having a Rat Ogre though even when he was AG3 he still wasn't a must have, in earlier editions.

During this era there was never any talk of these players being too cheap, and the mino almost never used by the best coaches/teams.

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With the change to CRP the game changed with a greater importance given to TV and team management. While this was the intent, and it was the intent to make Big Guys a tactical consideration rather than a must have it arguably went too far that way. In open divisions the big guy became fairly rare, and even in schedule leagues certain big guys which much less attractive.

So here is some data - https://steamcommunity.com/app/236690/d ... 350667144/

Chaos Dwarf - Only 9% of the teams in this sample size of "good coaches" would take a Big Guy
Chaos Pact - Only 16% of the teams had Minotaurs, where as 70% have Trolls. 48% have ogres.
Chaos - 35% have a Minotaur, which is a little more like it, and largely a result of having M access on singles.
Skaven - 26% have ROgre
Norse - 31% have Snow Troll/Yheti

Compared with -
46% ogres on human
62% Krox on slann
98% on Lizardmen
82% troll on Underworld
65% tree on wood elf
52% troll on Orc
66% on Nurgle Teams

As you can see above the better coaches are taking "other" big guys far more regularly than they do with any of the Wild Animals. Trolls being at 70% on pact compared to only16% of pact teams having a Minotaur is very telling. Chaos at 35% gives them the most frequently taken big guy. This is likely because it starts with M access meaning if you wish you can give them claw or tentacles to add some tactical depth and hitting power to your team. It is also worth considering that the closest team to Chaos in style is Nurgle who take their big guy 66% of the time.

Much more data to support this can be obtained if really needed
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Tactics - why WA sucks -

Firstly Wild Animal requires you to block or blitz to move with reliability. For the most part this means the Minotaur will have an 11.1% (2 block dice) of causing a turn over. 6.2% if they want to waste a re-roll which will be extremely rare, as you should only ever be doing this if it is of huge importance.
So over a 1 in 10 chance of causing a turn over. Though they only block/blitz this is only if they pass a 2+ roll first 83.3% chance of success.
These aren't great odds of getting your player to do what you want, and this is assuming you are using a block or blitz action.

Now it can be argued that these numbers are the same for Trolls or Ogres. However this is where things differ. For the most part I do not want my bone head or Really stupid player to do anything. I want them to stand there and hold as many players in their tackle-zone as possible for as long as possible to open up areas on the pitch gaining positional superiority. Wild Animals can also do this to a certain extend but they are far less successful at getting in the way. The reason for this is they cannot move with any reliability. Where as Bone head can always move in to a better position if needed on a 2+ and Really Stupid can too if they have 1 player supporting them, which should never really be an issue more later.

With Wild Animals you can be drawn out of the way of taken out of the drive fairly easily.
1- you can place a player in the Wild animals tackle zone on the side of the player that will draw them away from the action. this means the WA player will block you and take them self a few squares out of the way. This is especially easy to achieve when your player has dodge, as it means they can only knock you down on a POW unless they want to put them self on the floor too. Giving them 1 free hit like this is often enough to take them away from the action in a drive, if timed correctly leaving them on their own.

2 - if you disengage all your players from the WA it means the opposition have to waste their Blitz action if they want to keep their Minotaur up with the action with any reliability. I personally never want to be blitzing with a big guy in normal teams. It is the most important action of your turn and a 1 in 6 chance of failure is often too much of a risk for me to take for that action.

3- If you get a chance to put the Minotaur on the floor take it and they will often never recover fully that drive, by the time they stand up they will often be too far from the action or again you have to waste a blitz action with the big guy, using 3Ma to stand up, leaving only 2. If you are then hitting someone with the mino there is a decent chance you will end up using GFI's as a result of this blitz, assuming your opposition is smart enough to stand 1 or 2 squares away from the prone player. Again this would be a big risk play for the Minotaur which is why oftentimes coaches just try and roll the 4+. You do not want to be making extra rolls like GFI's with a loner

Knocking a Minotaur down shouldn't be that easy mind, because you should always keep big guys supported by 1 player at least to stop the knock down being so easy to achieve. This is also why Really Stupid is not a bad negatrait.
With RS players you want them to be positioned in the thick of the blocking, with at least 1 player assisting them. Most of the time just sitting there as guard support. Leaving RS players in a position for long enough that you are able to score because of the extra space they opened up. Or if defending leaving them in the way so that an oppositions offence gets too congested and they start having to take risks. Blocks with Really Stupid players should be few and far between, taking the option only when it doesn't matter if your fail your RS roll.

If your RS roll does fail and they end up on their own, then Really stupid players have the same odds of recovery as Wild Animal players. But this should almost never happen.

WA only positive- you keep your tackle zones - this is undoubtedly a good thing. But for me not being able to move reliably trumps this, as they are so easy to draw away from the action and leave them isolated the TZ thing doesn't concern me much. Positioning is the most important thing in blood bowl and that is a Wild Animals biggest negative.


I could go on but I'm sure you get the idea. here are some quotes from some of the better coaches in the game, again I could fine more but you get the idea -

I like minos - on my opponent's team.

I really hate Wild Animal. WA players tend to be pretty much out of an entire drive when they get knocked down once.

.
WA has the problem that once it's knocked down, it tends to lie on it's back for the rest of the drive unless you waste a blitz with it. I always target a mino as soon as I can to put it on the ground.

Loner is probably the worst for me. The fact is even 3d's are unreliable if you can't reroll them.

P.S. there is a reason they are called Minotards

[lunchmoney]

I would add pro/con Av8 vs Av9.

[garion]

was focusing on the trait rather than the players stats, and skills, but yes still a good point

[lunchmoney]

was focusing on the trait rather than the players stats, and skills, but yes still a good point

I get that, but all* WA are Av8 and all RS/BH are AV9, so it should be taken into account when judging the piece, surely?



*bar the corn big guy, who bucks the trend.

[lunchmoney]

You also missed a Con on RS - will lose tackle zone on a 1 (just like BH).

[lunchmoney]

I think some of the cons you have listed in WA are actually the same thing.

[zulu]

I think the WA Pro of not losing their tackle zone is huge. Often people are dodging away from big guys. They remain road blocks. Also it means that any skills you have like Guard and tentacles for example remain active.

[nightwing]

I think the WA Pro of not losing their tackle zone is huge. Often people are dodging away from big guys. They remain road blocks. Also it means that any skills you have like Guard and tentacles for example remain active.

This 100%. A failed Bonehead or Really Stupid creates a nice big hole in your line your opponent can take advantage of. A failed WA is inconvenient, sure, but at least your guy is still there, exerting a tackle zone, providing an assist etc

[fromherashes]

I think the WA Pro of not losing their tackle zone is huge. Often people are dodging away from big guys. They remain road blocks. Also it means that any skills you have like Guard and tentacles for example remain active.

This 100%. A failed Bonehead or Really Stupid creates a nice big hole in your line your opponent can take advantage of. A failed WA is inconvenient, sure, but at least your guy is still there, exerting a tackle zone, providing an assist etc

That’s it for me as well tbh.

In a league environment: Would I take a Mino on CD, no as they don’t need it. Would I take it on Chaos? Probably not as it means not being able to afford other things early on but maybe as the team develops. Would I take it on Renegades, yes.

In tournaments: CD, no. Chaos, yes. Renegades, yes. With the addition of block or even juggernaut the blitz becomes less risky and you need your other players doing different things.

The tackle zone thing is massive. If I have a troll on an orc or renegade team I generally don’t move it, it’s a roadblock. But if it goes down I’m having to leave or move a player next to it because otherwise it’s a 4+ to even stand him up. If the WA doesn’t need to blitz he doesn’t activate, if he does it’s a 2+. If I need to move him, sure it’s a 4+ but at least he’s still exerting a 9 square area that still presents a challenge to the opposite coach.

[garion]

Sure not disputing keeping TZ is a positive, I said as much above. However you rightly point out that the other big guys just get left standing there. That is all I want from my big guys, someone to get in the way. Nothing more. Getting them in to that position is much easier with a RS or BH as they are able to move much more reliably.

WA players are easy for any experienced coach to take out or away from the action and then its over for them. Which is why the hard stats above show good coaches do not use him very often.
Its worth noting that I have taken them before, intentionally running a sub optimal team. I suspect that 35% which is already low - would be a lot lower in Chaos teams if you remove the occasions where good coaches have built "fluffy teams" instead of competitive teams )

And why anecdotal evidence from good coaches also show why WA are hated. Here is another quote from one of the best coaches in the world, literally -

Just a note on the RS v WA thing (sorry, JT-Y!) ... You should be able to build a more TV efficient blitzer than a WA, moving the thing is a pain, it's too expensive and I like a RS roadblock far more. Tick, tick, tick; never hire that guy, even at LRB4 prices.

remember he was only 110k in lrb4 and no one used him.

[lunchmoney]

Hmm.... part of a quote....

Here's the entire thing Mr Goo wrote:

Just a note on the RS v WA thing (sorry, JT-Y!) - unless I'm much mistaken, Garion, you generally operate in an online, perpetual league environment, right? In my days of FUMBBLing pretty exclusively, I would have been fully behind your argument. You should be able to build a more TV efficient blitzer than a WA, moving the thing is a pain, it's too expensive and I like a RS roadblock far more. Tick, tick, tick; never hire that guy, even at LRB4 prices.

Sometimes we (myself included!) forget the huge breadth of BB environments out there in the offline world. In an eight team, seven game league season where the teams reset after game 7, it's actually probably good Blood Bowl to invest in a WA and rely on him to whack stuff. Not comfortable tactics for us, maybe, but probably sound thinking. You'd absolutely try and cram the WAs into a standard sort of a NAF ruleset, probably only excluding the Chaos Dwarf Mino, and even that is an unsolved debate.

Are they 'too expensive'? Perhaps. But I think there are formats where Wild Animals are desirable and tactically sound investments, preferable to a RS equivalent. At least, that's what I tell myself when I screw my eyes shut, cross my fingers and say 'Blitz with the Mino'.

On the journal - I've only had chance to thumb through it so far rather than take it in at my leisure, but for £8, I'm pretty impressed. Good show.

[mawph]

Goo is also in favour of the Rat Ogre at tournaments (having grabbed his advice ahead of the Waterbowl earlier in the year!). The point I expect is being made is that a blitzer type on chaos and pact probably is a beastman/lineman with block, MB, Claw, horns (PO depending on environment) which is much cheaper than a mino (regardless of discounting and much more reliable than a big guy whatever the negatrait), whose role would be to blitz not roadblock. Horses for courses and all that.

There's also other reasons why most of those teams mentioned as having low pick up rates on WAs have them, not just the fact that its a WA big guy.

[garion]

sure. I'd probably take a rat ogre in a tournament, that does not mean they represent good value for money though. They used to be 130k and have ag3 and there was a lot of debate back then if they had any real use in a skaven team in leagues. now they are huge bloat, and might get take now and then, but they are certainly not good value.

But I'm done. I'm not sure why I try and help people on this forum. But anyway - I've provided more than enough information, stats, quotes from top coaches, rationale. You lot carry on with your Wild Animal use if you like... that's your opinion. Any knowledgable good quality coach I've ever met would rather an ogre or troll than a Minotaur. But carry on...

[mattgslater]

While I agree with the conclusion (Wild Animal is worse than Bonehead and may even be worse than Really Stupid before considering costing), the argument is flawed. AV8 plays a huge role in why good coaches don't take Wild Animals: AV8 big guys are unreliable even if they're behaving well. Frenzy without access to Block plays a role too, as Juggernaut isn't so tempting on a negatrait loner; you're likely to have better blitzers most of the time. But yes, Wild Animal sucks.

EDIT: Orc Trolls suck too. There, I said it. They make you ostensibly better at what you're best at, but then cost you your primary resource in doing what you do, in that you have to babysit them. And they're unreliable. Gimme 3 linos over a Troll, a lino, and a Goblin, any day.

[spubbbba]

I think it is important to differentiate between discussing the negative traits themselves and the players that have them. The wild animals also having frenzy and AV8 compared to the Really stupid players having AV9 and regen plays as big if not higher factor in their popularity. If we are just looking at these traits then the other characteristics should be ignored.

RS players tend to be used as punching bags whilst WA are better suited to blitzing. Their negatraits influence this but these roles are further enforced by their skills and characteristics. So we really need to disregard that 2nd part for a true comparison of the traits.

Another way to pit it is if everything else was the same whether you’d prefer a troll/BoN with Wild animal over Really Stupid? Or the reverse for a RO/Mino.