Talk Fantasy Football

garion wrote:But I'm done. I'm not sure why I try and help people on this forum. But anyway - I've provided more than enough information, stats, quotes from top coaches, rationale. You lot carry on with your Wild Animal use if you like... that's your opinion. Any knowledgable good quality coach I've ever met would rather an ogre or troll than a Minotaur. But carry on...

I’m not sure anyone has actually asked for your help. You have your opinion, I have mine. I’ve no idea who you are other than some guy/girl on the Internet with a disproportionately high opinion of yourself..

I’m only speaking on my personal experience, and seeing others play. I’m open to reading what you’ve written, but quite happy to disagree.

garion wrote: But I'm done. I'm not sure why I try and help people on this forum.

Sometimes the way you "help" is a little forward and comes across as "my way is best, you are all wrong, I'm not open to debate."

garion wrote:sure. I'd probably take a rat ogre in a tournament, that does not mean they represent good value for money though. They used to be 130k and have ag3 and there was a lot of debate back then if they had any real use in a skaven team in leagues. now they are huge bloat, and might get take now and then, but they are certainly not good value.

But I'm done. I'm not sure why I try and help people on this forum. But anyway - I've provided more than enough information, stats, quotes from top coaches, rationale. You lot carry on with your Wild Animal use if you like... that's your opinion. Any knowledgable good quality coach I've ever met would rather an ogre or troll than a Minotaur. But carry on...

I'm not sure why you try and 'help' people on this forum either- please, feel free to stop anytime.

lunchmoney wrote:

garion wrote: But I'm done. I'm not sure why I try and help people on this forum.

Sometimes the way you "help" is a little forward and comes across as "my way is best, you are all wrong, I'm not open to debate."

Yeah, true, my writing style does come off as abrasive some times.

The main reason for this is I am passionate about this game, and desperately want the game to improve, and this rule set so far is getting increasingly poor (for me) with every subsequent release. I've played the game as far back as I can remember and some of the thing being ignored in this release or getting changed really beggars belief. Its like the current rules designers didn't play CRP and lrb5 for the last 12 years.

Things like - addressing Big Guy costing although a minor tweak would improve things. Those of that played the game heavily during the last 12 years were/are largely aware of this.
Instead we get a Human price decrease which makes no real difference to the team. Again anyone that played CRP and previous editions knows that humans troubles start at high TV. This change has no impact in that area. Av8 is a heavily house ruled change in the CRP era. It makes a small difference at high tv play. Reducing his cost missed the point.

Then we get a bunch of really questionable decisions like changing how money works. Now TV leaders get inducement advantage what became known as sneak hiring in LRB4 is back which CRP correctly addressed and fixed, but now its undone. Some people call is Overdog spending... Its not a good thing.

We also get (IN)famous coaching adding additional dicey stuff to gets. increasing the luck factor - none more so than the drunk wizard, which is horribly undercosted for 2 fireballs.

So when I am trying to feedback on the latest drip fed part of rules (drip feeding rules is another thing I'm not fond of) and the people designing the rules continually fail to address glaring fixes here and there it is a real kick in the teeth.

In this instance Minotaur costs still aren't tweaked to make them in line with the other big guys in terms of how often people would consider using them.

Or that Zap is now based on armour, which makes it especially effective against Stunty players, catchers etc...? another unbalancing rule change. And that race specific wizards have been put in the main rules rather than optional rules section. its all bad news for the game and we need the designers to be aware of this stuff.

there is always going to be push and pull between people playing the game for laughs while drunk and people that want the game to be as tight and competitive as it possibly can. These things are not mutually exclusive. they can be achieved. Sadly this rule set is mostly catering for the "funsters" and moving increasingly in that direction...

Wild Animal players have Frenzy and thats their bonus - add Juggernaut and you have a ST5/6 with 'safe' blitzing abilities.

HaHa I just threw away a game when my Minotaur - the aptly named Lord of Skulls triple-skulled (and failed loner) blitzed to remove the only TZ from a ball that I had already knocked to the ground.
The Dark Elves will have whisked it away when I get the NeXT turn (on email).

I do think that Wild Animals can have their uses.
But to my mind they're worse than RS & BH.

Cheers
Martin

I personaly value not losing your TZ much higher than you do. Yes it sucks to only be able to do bashy actions, but the cost of failing any action is so much lower. The minotaur can be activated more often because he'll never leave a hole in your defense when you can't afford it. Yes the troll and ogre are better value for stats, but for me that comes down to the lower AV much more than WA. Finally the comparison isn't too valuable since only Pact can chose between all three and they'll take them all anyways. The Mino is a valid choice if a team needs strength, but Chaos Chosen and Dwarfs have that anyways through ST4 players. Pact doesn't, so they'll start with it more often than others.

Edit: On the Pact thing from your stats: Those are mostly developed teams and a Pact team that has developed a good blitzer or two can and should kick the mino since it becomes far less valuable when better players compete for the blitz action. In general you have a lot of developed teams there since there's a minimum number of games to be included. Those work different than starting teams.

I think there are other variables to consider, such as:

- Who takes the blitz action?
- What value Frenzy?
- Aggregate team ST.
- Fit with starting roster.

Frenzy players (WAs) like to blitz. I do not take the Minotard on a CD team (whether in leagues or tournaments) because I typically blitz with one of the Bulls. The 'Tard does not bring much to the table if he is does not blitz.

I like to take a Minotard on a Chaos team in tourneys (format permitting). Juggernaut or Block (depending on format) is sufficient (unskilled 'Tards are not worth writing home about). A (relatively reliable) Frenzy player blitzing at ST6 (meaning perhaps 3-6 block dice) with M-Blow and crowd-surfing potential is a handy threat. And just plonking him into the middle of the opponent's cage can be pleasantly disruptive.

In leagues, however, it is a different matter, since the standard TV100 Chaos roster does not have room for a 'Tard. He will be bought late, when the team is already starting to develop. TV considerations also come into play. I don't disdain him, though.

I find a Minotard excellent on a starting Chaos Pact roster. As well as the Frenzy threat, he ups the aggregate ST of the team to 39 (+Horns). 3 x ST5 players creates a lot more issues for the opponent than 2.

I have not played sufficiently with Skaven and Norse to comment meaningfully on the Rat Ogre and Snow Troll. I don't disdain them, though.

A Wild Animal must fit into a style of play that works for it (both from the team and its coach). A matter of technique, temperament and team development.

Hope that helps.

garion wrote:Sure not disputing keeping TZ is a positive, I said as much above. However you rightly point out that the other big guys just get left standing there. That is all I want from my big guys, someone to get in the way. Nothing more.

This seems to be an argument for Wild Animal. If you fail BH then you have an expensive piece doing much the same job as a prone snotling. That's a huge amount of your TV effectively wiped off the pitch and the only thing you can really do to mitigate that risk is not to activate the player in the first place. For getting in the way, take WA (see, it even rhymes).

The question of whether people tend to take WA players tells you next to nothing about the value of the WA negatrait versus the value of those players as a whole in the context of the teams they can play for.

TL/DR
No, I don't think so.

plasmoid wrote:HaHa I just threw away a game when my Minotaur - the aptly named Lord of Skulls triple-skulled (and failed loner) blitzed to remove the only TZ from a ball that I had already knocked to the ground.
The Dark Elves will have whisked it away when I get the NeXT turn (on email).

I do think that Wild Animals can have their uses.
But to my mind they're worse than RS & BH.

Cheers
Martin

Yeah well this is the consensus amongst any good coaches I ever speak to, and the stats also back it.

nightwing wrote:
I'm not sure why you try and 'help' people on this forum either- please, feel free to stop anytime.

Best response in this whole thread.

Somewhat back on track: for me, WA is initially as good, or better, than the others as a 5St, frenzy, MiB is usually my best blitz anyway AND he won't lose tackle zones....

Later in development, it is a different story as you/I develope better blitzers. Lack of access to block, on normals, always menaces the WAs....

Had a big issue keeping my snow troll involved versus slann recently.

There were so many targets my wolfs/zerkers were capable of blitzing each turn and not many chances for blocking. He threw 1 block all game (I only managed 31 total though as he kept away well - I also took a few off the field early limiting potential victims).

Certainly would have preferred r.s. or BH in that game as he could not throw a 4+ but he has done well elsewhere. Might well be a horses for courses thing I feel.

I play ogres alot and BH can be the undoing of your offensive drive and defense attempts.

WA is an annoying skill if you need to use your mino, rat ogre, or snow troll to be a mobile unit, if thats the case then you know you need to blitz with him every turn to make it a viable option, to have a better success of being used and to get them where they need to be... the other option is to put stand firm, guard and use him as a road block to keep the defensive line in tact, and to support the other players, thats it.

The mino is my favourite i think he should be taken more, horns along with frenzy is a great combo, but get some skills on him and he becomes not a great player but an annoying one, unless you get alot of doubles, the armour is only 8 but what he lacks in av and movement ability because of WA, he makes up for offensive when used...