Rat Ogres - Are they worth it?

Warp Fiend · Post by **Warp Fiend** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 6:14 am

I am new to coaching Skaven, I actually have yet to play a game with them yet. I was pretty excited about having a Rat Ogre on my team until I read the rules for them and saw the whole Wild Animal rules. I am using the 3.5 rules (I guess officialy called the 2k1 rules) in my league. So do you all think that the Rat Ogre is worth the cost and the risk of turnovers if he is outmanned and is forced to make a bad block where you can't use a reroll? I know I will try to hire the star player as I don't believe he is a Wild Animal, but I am a little uncertian as to whether or not I will want to hire a regular one... Thanks!

gken1 · Post by **gken1** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 6:27 am

the new rules really do put a damper on him. Especially the no reroll rule. I buddy bought one for his skaven team expecting it to be the power that it needs to keep from getting smashed. The first game it caused 4 turnovers. 2 on double skulls, 1 on a failed dodge after blitzing, 1 on forgeting to move him first. He still got beat on too since after the turnover all his players were still standing next to enemy players.

Definitely need to get this guy block or it could be a long season.

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 8:17 am

Block is one of the keys, as is clever placement..

Initially I would use him as a 'midfield' defender, using his speed and strength to keep opponents away from your end-zone. If you deliberately target low AV opponents you have a good chance of picking up casualties quickly. Always leave a linerat or 2 standing next to him.. they cannot assist him, but they CAN prevent multiple assists against him... Sneaky, huh?

Expect one turn over per game because of him (even with block!) and you should not be too disappointed. All big guys are a liability without exception, treemen don't show up, trolls and ogres scratch their heads too often and the rest go ape when you least want them to... That's the whole point of them, so enjoy it, it's "characterful..."

_________________
"If something is easy it isn't worth doing.."

[ This Message was edited by: Norse on 2002-03-26 08:18 ]

Ancalagon · Post by **Ancalagon** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 8:24 am

Last time I used a WA was in gold edition (a minotaur). I learnt some tricks; for example, don't use your WA on scrimmage line, keep it back and use him to make the blitz. Try to put a player near him that negat asists from the other player. In gold I gave a dagger to my minotaur to avoid danger from consecutive blocks due frenzy, but now frenzy is less dangerous.
I think that rat ogre is one of the best big guys and although I haven't tested it, sure it can work really well once you learn how to control its WA.

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 1:50 pm

Wild Animal is a serious drawback but the stats of RO are pretty good. So as have already said Norse, it depends of your play to statute if a RO worth his price or not.

In addition, skaven are a fast team, you may not need the use of a blocker in your team ??

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 1:59 pm

8 turnovers the last game I played!
Gotta love them!

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 2:09 pm

Ok deathwing but do you think is due to :
A) Bad luck,
B) Error of setting,
C) Rat ogre are too bad

[ This Message was edited by: Trambi on 2002-03-26 14:09 ]

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 3:26 pm

Everyone complains about ROs here, but the Minotaur suffers the same 'flaw' with few complaints. Is that because his horns give him +1 S on a blitz??

My personal feeling is that a RO lends more to a Skaven team than a Minotaur lends to a Chaos team. I think a RO is good value for money of you use him correctly (he can catch an accurate pass on a 3+ for God's sake!)..

First skill = Block
First trait = Spikes

After that he's not a problem any more...

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 3:51 pm

And what about a minotaure in Norsca team ?

Ancalagon · Post by **Ancalagon** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 4:23 pm

Trambi: As said some time ago: like minos norses have horns too!

Leaving apart jokes I like minos much more than RO, but if in the future I play with skavens for sure I'll have a rat ogre. And I'll freebot the RO star.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 4:34 pm

On 2002-03-26 14:09, Trambi wrote:
Ok deathwing but do you think is due to :
A) Bad luck,
B) Error of setting,
C) Rat ogre are too bad

[ This Message was edited by: Trambi on 2002-03-26 14:09 ]

Mainly bad luck in this case (how about the indignity of Badly hurting yourself in a 3D Block against a Gobbo?), but I knew that starting 2 RO in a rookie team of 11 was gonna hurt early. I went that route to get them Block ASAP, I tend to think middle term rather than being good from the start.
Maybe I should have started with one and introduced a rookie at a later date when the first one had Block. It didn't help coming up against a rookie team with 4 Black Orcs, 4 Blitzers and an Ogre!!
Still, they owe me now and I expect them to kick some serious butt next time around!

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Wed Mar 27, 2002 8:13 am

I hope this won't be mine

I think it's harder to begin with WA in a team. But we will C .

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Wed Mar 27, 2002 10:42 am

The Rat Ogre doesn't come into his own until he got Block. Until then he makes a great defender sat at the back waiting for the assault from the opposition can quickly turn the advantage of a game. Even with Block, he still needs to be used carefully as it is only to easy especially with Frenzy to fall into a trap set by a clever coach.

I've currently got one in my MBBL2 League, and as expected he is prooving to be as much a liability as a asset. Its only caused one turnover against me due to a Frenzy follow up resulting in a Defenders choice 2D Block.
However i've used him sparsely in the back field mainly to mop up the overspill from a rampant Vampire side, who my linerats have just not been able to cope with.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Mar 27, 2002 11:07 am

The new WA rules do force you to be extremely selective about how you use your RO. You can't just buy one and go "wheyhey! ST5 rat! come and have a go!" They are best used situationally where absolutely needed and kept of the pitch the rest of the time.

I'd agree with Norse and McDeth that one of the best uses for them is as a safety or midfield sweeper. Keeping them back off the ball gives you a lot more freedom.

For starters they're not always going to be forced to make blocks since they won't always be adjacent to opponents. Secondly moving first is less of a problem if all they're doing is hanging back and getting 3 dice blocks on squishy little catchers. Thirdly if your opponent wants to take him out he'll have to commit a substantial number of players to do it, these players will then no longer be in close proximity to the ball.

My 4th ed rat ogres were crucial to my team's ability to bust up a cage against dwarves or chaos. Of course we didn't have a "must hit adjacent player" rule then so giving them stand firm and sending them off blitzing was much lower risk.

My skaven team in this 2k1 season has just bought a RO. I had been deciding whether or not it was worthwhile - I know that he really does help break up the rhythm of a cage when you get a wall of greenskins or stunties marching towards you but he can be a liability as well.

Example: Last month's WPS grand tournament I was drawn against Geoff Porrit's skaven. He had taken a RO, I had not. His RO was doing some spectacular damage until I clicked that he was almost always using it as a rogue hunter-killer and not involving it in the drive. This made it easy to lure his RO off to one side then surround him with players and force him to start his turn with a 1/2 die block. I even used this as a turnover tactic late in the game: I declined to chase down the ballcarrier and instead surrounded his rat ogre trying to force a turnover on the spot. Unluckily it didn't work outright, despite the good odds of it doing so. It did, however, force him to send players to his RO's rescue, giving me better field position and eventually the match.

So my new rat ogre will be sitting on the bench. When I do bring him out he will be used to break holes in cages and pummel catchers. Hopefully it won't take too long to get him block

Marcus

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Wed Mar 27, 2002 2:48 pm

If I played Skaven - and I certainly don't, but if I did - I'd get a Rat Ogre. And I'd work on giving him Block and Pro as his first two skills.

-Chet