The Fouling Game

[Acerak]

Right! So, with DP now as a +2 OR +2 skill, where are we?

Well, I think we're at a stage where fouling is very close to being in its "rightful place." As noted previously, it's now a tactic (something you do in the game on a situational basis) instead of a strategy (a feature or style of play around which you design an entire team or routinely win games regardless of matchups).

This difference expresses itself in a number of ways on the Blood Bowl pitch. First, the number of Dirty Players is down - way down. In fact, it's no longer necessary for a team to have any DPs on its roster, and I've seen several 2K1 rosters notable for such absences.

Second, teams no longer spend most of their free moves bringing players into position to foul.

Absent this extraneous movement, we come to our third point - the game now revolves more around the ball than around the boot. More Linemen now focus on basic skills like Block, Tackle, and Strip Ball. Those who foul generally become one-dimensional players.

To generalize, I like the changes. I still feel the game is tilted plenty away from fouling, though. I think it could use a small boost back the other way.

My biggest "hang-up" with fouling as currently constructed? Teams still play "hold the counter," and the opponent can't do much about it. I'd like to use an old favorite of mine in league play - a new skill called Sneaky Player.

Sneaky Player (General Skill)
The player is very skilled at avoiding unwanted attention from the referees. He is only ever caught on a Ref Roll of 6 when he takes a Foul action, whether or not the Eye is on his team. Note that this skill only works if the Sneaky Player is actually making the foul, rather than lending an assist.

I think that would tweak the system just enough to balance it nicely. Unlike the old DP/Pro combo, a DP/SP combo would be difficult to achieve due to a lack of SPPs for Fouling. The SPP raise for the second skill (from 11 to 16 SPPs) would also help limit the number of times this combo could be used.

So why have it? Well, it keeps the DP down the Dark Path. Given a chance to augment his natural psychotic tendencies, he'll have less chance of becoming an all-around nuisance. (Think the DP/Pro/B/Dless gods of old, minus the halos.)

But it also provides a different avenue for those who want to foul tactically, but aren't enamored of violent DPs who become quick targets. If you would rather take your chances with a sneaky +1 foul, that's fine. If you prefer the more violent, but more easily spotted dirty foul, that's fine, too! But it gives a coach a choice. And it lets the coach of an expensive team throw the occasional foul without the nagging worry that he's losing out on the deal every time.

Finally, the skill is self-limiting. If the Eye is not on your team, it has no effect. Like DP, Sneaky Player can be used by one player each turn (not counting Grudge Matches). This means duplication isn't always a great tactic.

I like to take a pair of Dirty Players, even in this day and age. One is there to throw a prime first-half foul at the best target I can find as early as possible. Her mere presence (I play Amazons, remember) makes the other team hesitate before pounding on my AV7 players. She also draws some heat that would otherwise set fire to my Blitzers. And she's good for chewing up the Apothecary early.

If I lose her, I have a backup DP. If I don't, I wait and throw fouls in the second half even with the Eye on me, knowing I will have a good chance of getting the opponent out of the game anyway.

If I had access to a skill like Sneaky Player, I would probably develop one of each for starters. The DP would come in when the Eye was off my team; the SP would come in when warranted the rest of the time.

Thoughts?

-Chet

Edited to take out useless HR tags.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Acerak on 2002-04-03 18:26 ]</font>

[Deathwing]

Interesting. I happen to think the balance is about right as it is.
Sneaky Player: One thing on an Amazon team, but how about the impact of a pair of SP/DP on a Chaos/Orc/Undead team? A DP that can foul every turn and go off only on the roll of a 6? My thought is that every team bar none would have such a player. Do we need 'must have' skill combos on a cheap player of every team regardless of race?

[Thadrin]

make them exclusive.
A player may use one or the other not both.
(he may HAVE both though).

Have to admit I play sit o the eye counter, and generally only foul if I have at least a two man advantage or am playing a Get the ref.

[Anthony_TBBF]

Hmm I'd have to agree with DW, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Acerak]

Interesting. I happen to think the balance is about right as it is.
Sneaky Player: One thing on an Amazon team, but how about the impact of a pair of SP/DP on a Chaos/Orc/Undead team? A DP that can foul every turn and go off only on the roll of a 6? My thought is that every team bar none would have such a player. Do we need 'must have' skill combos on a cheap player of every team regardless of race?

It's my belief that this wouldn't be a widespread (or crippling) combo. Remember that the player needs 16 SPPs to get two skills. Once he gets the first one, his SPP rate slows down, because he doesn't gain anything for fouling (and he is removed from play more frequently than most other players).

In addition, a 2K1 DP foul isn't close in power to the old 3E DP foul. Assists are rarer, and the "OR for AND" switch usually means that you'll add +2 to AV rather than injury.

In short, I don't see this as a "must have" combo. I mean, I'd rather have a defensive skill like Block or split my skill choices for a while.

-Chet

[Lucien Swift]

hmmmm... interesting idea. i had a similar skill in my league for a while. pulled it for no particular reason, impressions ran hot and cold... really, it depended on how many of your players had been booted over the years...

i think the problem here is that for situations where teams might play a season and then be retired, it is fine to argue that 16spp's is a long haul, but think of where you might be 2 or 3 seasons down the road... sure, most teams won't be turning to the dark side in the modern era, but with this new sneaky skill in place, i'd be sorely tempted to go there and have something in my arsenal the rest of the league doesn't, if i had any success at all, the rest of the coaches would flock to the strategy like flies to a bug-zapper too... in the end, fouling ends up right back where it started, hard to stop and very common...

the idea of having DP and SP exclusive is interesting, but not a "usual" mechanic (though, fouling already has a few weird exclusions, rsc and claw, mb, etc)... typically, i'm cold to the thought of adding any new skill which sets any sort of mechanical precedent, it's a warning flag to me that it is something that will be trouble down the line...

personally, i still like the idea of having DP only affect the injury roll... this lessens the impact of a DP (as he might not always bust armor without dangerous assists), but when he does, you get that bang for your buck frequently enough... a DP modified like this wouldn't bug me as much if combined with sneaky player...

[Trambi]

Yesterday, i read again the 2k1 review, and i realize that fouling is really depreciated (+2 in amror roll or in injury roll, sigurd table, defensive asssist ...). With the 2k1, it's difficult to play an hardcore fouling game and it's a not very profitable way of playing.

Our league don't use this review cos some players like to play very dirty and feel disapointed by the 2k1 review.

_________________
Ogres are the only true Blood Bowl players !


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Trambi on 2002-04-04 08:38 ]</font>

[Norse]

Sorry Chet, I'm with Thadrin, I think it would take us back to the bad old days when I'm quite happy with the new limitations..

[Ancalagon]

SP could be a trait, this will make harder to get the combo.

[Marcus]

My biggest "hang-up" with fouling as currently constructed? Teams still play "hold the counter," and the opponent can't do much about it.

I have to say I like it. I think "Hold the Counter" as you put it is a valid strategy with real tradeoffs. Keeping the refs eye on the opposition team has a payoff (fouls are riskier for the opponent) and a tradeoff (you cannot foul at all).

Say you're playing elves vs orcs. The orc coach has a DP or 3 on his roster and likes to go in for regular foulage. You have a line-elf with DP who you often use early in the game to take out key players (much as Chet described). You have a strategic decision to make - do you use your player to foul key players and keep the ref's attention see-sawing back and forth, or do you decline to foul and keep the pressure on the opponent.

If holding the counter were a strategy with no drawbacks I'd agree with Chet. As it stands however I think there is a good balance at work.

If you would rather take your chances with a sneaky +1 foul, that's fine. If you prefer the more violent, but more easily spotted dirty foul, that's fine, too! But it gives a coach a choice.

Nice in theory but I have to agree with other posts here that players can and will build a sneaky/dirty player as a priority. Which puts us right back where we started.

One thing we did do in a previous season was rewrite dirty player to "allow a skill reroll on foul rolls". The had exactly the effect you described - if you failed to breach armour on the foul or didn't get the injury you were after you could foul again, but at the same risk of being caught. If you got caught you could reroll and take the second result. In many ways it combined both elements of dirty player without being too powerful.

We dropped this rule for BB2k1 since they don't really apply given the new rulings on ref rolls and rerolling armour but it's the kind of thing that achieves what you're after without completely circumventing IGMEOY.

Absent this extraneous movement, we come to our third point - the game now revolves more around the ball than around the boot.

Exactly the point of my original post. I found, almost without exception, that a player who played an attrition fouling strategy to lower the number of players on the pitch sacrificed a crippling amount of field position to make fouls turn after turn, this allowed me to use my "extraneous players" to screen off and take control of a larger portion of the pitch, limiting the opposition's movement and giving me greater freedom.

As I said - this almost always (and I'm talking a good 90%+ of the time here) gave me the advantage I needed to score quickly and force the opponent to play catchup. Once you force a fouling team into a catchup game they can no longer spend their time marching slowly down the pitch fouling at will and actually have to construct scoring plays. With their skills geared towards murder and not scoring they generally tried to fight their way out by killing more players (misguided tactics or spite: your call) and a viscious cycle ensued.

Certainly there are circumstances where a team can foul the hell out of you and you'll never recover; but all else being equal, in a league situation, a team that scores fast and wins games will out-develop a team that's built for fouling and the fouling team will never catch up.

This is the crux of my argument, that building a team for attrition fouls is a losing strategy.

I'm primarily a finesse coach. Skaven and Woodelves are my favourite teams. I do however have a fondness for coaching dwarves. One thing I enjoy most about dwarves is that they dont' rely on attrition fouling to gain a numerical advantage on the pitch. Troll slayers can quite happily spend all day sweeping players off the pitch without the ref batting an eyelid. And if they're only stuns or KOs, who cares? you're going to spend 6-8 turns scoring anyway. That to me is playing the percentage attrition game - no risk of sendoffs and player removal is congruent with field position.

Has anyone seen any fouling styles that do not comprimise the scoreboard. Note I'm talking about teams of roughly equal TR here.

Marcus

[Marcus]

Our league don't use this review cos some players like to play very dirty and feel disapointed by the 2k1 review.

That's another thing - why does every French player I know love to foul incessantly. I think they're all taking pointers from their rugby team *cough*

Interestingly enough we have a French player in our league. Started out fouling like a monster but we've gradually turned him around and he now has one of the finest positional games in the league.

Marcus

[Norse]

It's maybe historical, as the French have won very few things fair and square over the years ( ) although the resistance showed us just how vindictive and well organised they can be..

As for rugby, I say GO FRANCE!! As long as one of Ireland, Wales, Scotland or France continue to humiliate the hated English once a year I don't care who wins the 6 nations....

_________________
"If something is easy it isn't worth doing.."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Norse on 2002-04-04 11:40 ]</font>

[Longshot]

French are cool, lol.
i love your skill Chet.

Yesterday, Trambi and I, talk about this problem: i think that JJ and Friends have discovered the real impact of DP too late.
(i remenber some Chaos with +6/+5 on fouling...) but it seems that now, they are too afraid of fouling (too many rules that kill to minimise it).
No cumulated skills is good thing (we use it too)
Trambi and I though about an alternative to IGMEOY: let take DP as a secret Weapon.
Each time that a player use his skill DP, he musn't make a double (as usual) and/or (to test) have to do a penalty roll of 9+.(look like ref roll)
What da ya think of it? (it seems in the spirit of Secret weapon, so...)
In the league i manage, a player sent off MUST miss the next game for his expulsion.

I think that a DP who foul 4/5 times a game is more powerfull that a team that Try to foul as much as possible without skills.

Next proposal: Why dont kill this skilled?
DP dont exist anymore....

JJ should take a balanced compromise between nothing about fouling and too much rules against it.
2/3 rules can solved this problem i suppose,
but choose the right ones.

ref roll: why not (as up)
IGMEOY:dont really like it but i could go with it
no rerolling: i am against that rule
no spp: dont agree
no MB,Claw,RSC: why a player with MB should be less violent when he foul? (dont agree)
defensive assist:heavy rule (how would i explain to the newbies all the assist now?
they will be lost), dont like either.
DP+2 OR +2:sounds good

ps: really love Sneaky player skill
so ideas? comments?

[Norse]

Wow, you French really are viscious, aren't you?

I'll be honest, at first when I saw how the game had been cleaned up I was a bit mistified as to why. The new injury table, the IGMEOY rule, the limit to DP skill, no SPPs etc all got me at first..

And you know what? Now I love them for 2 reasons..

1) I've been forced to change the way I play and I think I am now a much better player, with more interest in winning than maiming (Lucy may disagree.. )

2) My very expensive Dwarves now have a level of protection from the referee whereas before they would have been dog food to a team of lucky cheats..

Maybe if I was still using my hobgobs I would feel differently. Fouling is still part of the game and it always should be, but it should not be without risk..

One point I agree with however.. If more rules are brought in to make fouling more powerful again, then I would like to see match length bans for a few games. Maybe even use an equivalent of NI to see if a well known fouler is under suspension for certain games:

Any player with DP skill(and SP trait) is treated as having a poor disciplinary record. Roll a D6 before every game and on a 1 they are unavailable as they are serving a ban for this game..

That's my best idea so far....

P J'adore les francais (et votre vin rouge!)

[Marcus]

I've been forced to change the way I play and I think I am now a much better player, with more interest in winning than maiming

Score one point for my theory

If more rules are brought in to make fouling more powerful again, then I would like to see match length bans for a few games. Maybe even use an equivalent of NI to see if a well known fouler is under suspension for certain games

Personally I think no changes need to be made, the rules are fine as they stand IMO. I use fouling for removing key players or getting a stun in a drive when I need it and the tradeoff is just about right.

One suggestion for Norse's idea tho - how about players who have been caught fouling in the previous game automatically count as always having the ref's eye on them; regardless of where the counter is.

Should play well and fits into the flavour of the game ("Listen Fingers, I saw that unfortunate incident in your previous match against the Moot Muppets and I'll have you know there'll be none of that behaviour this match")

Marcus