MBBL2 Season 2 Playoffs / Scramble

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 10:35 am

Deathwing wrote: Didn't you get that last file mate? All the RO could do was pushbacks, one dodge, (maybe a gfi?) and you're in.

GFI!!!!! NO PLEASE IT'LL TAKE ME AT LEAST AN HOUR TO PLUCK UP COURAGE TO ROLL THE DICE.

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 10:48 pm

Final sorry tale on the Dorks v Falks

In O/T the Dorks lost the toss and kicked deep and wide hoping to out flank the heavies. 2 Norse were quickly KO'd and the outflanking didn't work as the ball was snaffled and passed to the Shallya ally (basically a Blodge Elf in all bar name due to Bless).

The Norse KO'd Paks the White Knight... but it was "only a Flesh Wound" so he stayed on the pitch and now couldn't be injured or removed from the pitch as his gallantry and training took over (I could use another phrase here which would include "broken" and "skill"). So instead of 9 v 10 it was 9 v 11.

Another Norse BH'd himself dodging and 2 more were KO'd by blocks. Trying to 1 die blitz the ball carrier (with a player with Strip Ball) a dodge and the reroll failed - this left a Blodge catcher who was waiting to dodge and try and pick the ball up to be pushed into the crowd who killed him.

So it was 11 v 5 and no surprise the Falks scored. The White Knight suddenly felt injured again and was stunned.

Well I had a good go at the Falks... more than 100 points of TR less and if I hadn't failed 3 important 1 in 9 rolls (1 to catch the ball within reach of the endzone at end 2nd half, 2 a dodge with the ball to advance so that I could score in the first half and the third to blitz in O/T) the score may have been different. No casualties were caused by me - despite having 2 Storm Giants and a Snow Troll with RSC... and the crowd were very friendly to the Falks when they had vistors (2 went to reserves).....

Dave

PS DW - I would swap the Leprechaun for a number of the mean buggers on the Albions anyday...

PPS Galak sorry about the broken reference above..... and I know you know!

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 11:02 pm

I think is the last season for Falk's anyway. Jon thinks the Albion team posted on the web site is broken (meaning so bad they cannot win) and will likely retire.

Jon's a bit of a power gamer ... so this doesn't surprise me. I'm going to return the Albion team to their roots if he retires his team. Which means a very different team for sure .... one that few will declare as broken.

Galak

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 11:12 pm

Well Jon asked me for my thoughts on the Albions per the web-site so here it is.... I didn't mention Flesh Wound in this. Jon agreed but added that it will be harder to get assists since all the hevies would have to go first.

I've had a quick look at the roster. It is still very strong stats wise:-

The Knights of Albion are Orc blitzers with Push for 10k more (neg traits see below).

All have av 9 except the linos who are av 8 and only 40k - the same price as a Gobbo.

The Wandering Knights are miles better than Black Orcs.

The White Knight is the best (and except for Yum - the cheapest value wise - see below) Big Guy available - 5 ST and AG 3 with no negative such as Bonehead or Really Stupid (in fact if he didn't have Greater Glory he would be worse on this team since he would then need to move after the other Knights) and he starts with Pro - a 50% chance to reroll.

So pretty strong so far. So what's the catch? Well its that there is only one player who is a reliable ball carrier. The Captain is the only one with no negative skills. The Men at Arms are very unreliable ball carriers. All the others (except the Captain) have Greater Glory. Now is this bad.... well it depends. Al the Greater Glory players must go first. Since these are the best players that probably isn't too bad - it would be worse if some of the players didn't have it. This means you can pick which order to move the Greater Glory players. So if any of these players have the ball - its not too bad. Having said that if the Captain has the ball - he must move after these players - that could be a problem.

The second downside is that you must play with 5 Men at Arms as a minimum on the team (I will leave allies out of this). These are not good players but are good for the line and putting TZs on the opponent's strong players. Being only 40k they are easy to replace. In addition they are useful for taking the hand off from the Captain to score. Sure if the Greater Glory players have the ball then they may not make the hand off.... but then you use Pro or just cage around the ball carrier and try again next turn.

Overall its difficult to say how strong they are. What I will say is that a poor coach will not do well with a rookie Albion team. If you roll over the Falks, then they will still be very powerful - all those extra skills mean that they will still be a very strong team. Can someone else develop a team like the converted Falks? I would say no - since it will be more difficult to develop them from rookie status.

In conclusion (from my review of the team), do I think the Albion line up is too powerful? - no. Do I think the Falks will dominate the League - quite possibly since they have developed under easier rules. Is the current line up too weak - possibly (but certainly not by much) due to the negative traits (NB this is for a rookie team) - however a good coach will be able to get around most of the negatives. This is all a bit of guess work since only play testing will determine how strong they are.

I plugged the team into Pink Horror's spreadsheet - this is quite a good way of looking at the teams. The cut off point is 80 in terms of power (no team is allowed to have more than 80 in MBBL2) and if a team is close to 80 in terms of power it shouldn't be close to 80 in terms of value.

The results for the Albions are:-

Power 72.78
Value 74.72

The only official team with a better power rating and a higher value rating are the Chaos Dwarves (value is good due to the cheap Hobbos, Blockers and rerolls):-

Power 75.06
Value 76.54

Orcs for example are rated:-

Power 75.23
Value 67.02

So a bit better on power but much worse in value terms.

9 of the 15 official teams have power ratings below the Albions - and only the Chaos Dwarves have a better value rating. So this says that the Albions are still a very strong team - not overpowered, but nonetheless strong. Is PH's spreadsheet a good indicator? Yes and no. It is subjective and depends on values attributed to skills (positive and negative) and stats. It is consistent though in that each team is rated on the same basis and it looks at potential too. This analysis says that even a rookie Albion team is still very strong. According to PH's spreadsheet the White Knight should be valued at 157,000 - so at 130k - he is very cheap (Yum is discounted more... but then this is to balance that he is on a stunty team!).

Dave

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 11:40 pm

Well, back to the scramble, and mine and McDeth's game finished 4-1. Has to to be said Steve's luck was appalling, and what wouldn't I have given to have a little more of my good luck in the play-off game?
So Verminwarp: Not a bad first season all in all considering how weak they started, but there's a nice foundation in place now. They could really kick on next season, can't wait.

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 8:20 am

Sometimes games go like that. However take nothing away, DW played it well and capitalized on my mistakes, which is what it is all about.

On the good side for the Widows, each of the players who picked up SPP's in the game. Managed to get a skill roll, which resulted in an AG increase and 2 Std skills, Also i won enough cash to upgrade to apothecary level 3.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:15 pm

DW .. I reviewed the Blood n' Mud match.

Just for the record .. Jay only had 20k at the beginning of the match .. he could only use NIGG twice on the Leprechaun. The guy has an AV of 7 and is +1 to injury. You knocked him down 8 times and never tried to foul him. Of the 8 knockdowns, you only broke armour on the Leprechaun only once.

I don't think it was the Leprechaun that was broken here ... I think it was some fairly wimpy hitting by the followers of Khorne.

That and Jay played a tough game.

Well the Leprechaun will be off the Runners for Season 3 ... we'll have to see how your boys in Red and Black do next season ... oh and by the way I see once again you named a player Rookie #3 ... got a better name for a Chaos Warrior my friend???

Galak

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:49 pm

If you keep on calling a player Rookie 3 then can I suggest another name:-

Unlucky

Dave

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Wed Sep 18, 2002 12:38 am

LOL!
Guess I'd better respond...
I'll have another look at the file, but from my recollection I stuck the boot in on a WD both halfs....
All of which brings up an interesting question...
Playing by pbem I like to just play *as if* it's tabletop..i.e. I don't sit and analyse the situation for half an hour before I make a move, I prefer to just go on gut instinct and make my moves just as I would normally..and quite often I think sh*t Wood you f*cking idiot..you screwed up big time there, instead of doing A, you should have done B..you fool..
Pbem for me is a tool to play over the net, simple as that. I guess people do take the opportunity to analyse exactly what they did wrong etc; or exactly what they're going to do next on any given dice result.
I never spend more than 3 or 4 mins a turn just because pbem allows me to do so. Play the game as you normally would is my motto, and consequences be damned...

Back to the game...at the end of the first half I had 3x 3D blocks to put that lep into the crowd (requiring just a push each time). I'd do the same again....and all things being equal..well...

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Sep 18, 2002 1:10 am

Now this is a interesting debate.

See one of the things I like about PBeM is that the players have tons of time to really plan their moves ... BB becomes more of a strategy when you have time to weigh the options.

Map out your options consider the consequences. Now I still do my normal turn in 3 to 4 minutes but I occassionally do take a little longer to think it out.

Now some of the coaches have time to turn. For instance the runner up in season 1 of the MBBL2 was my brother Dennis. He used to come to work a 40 minutes early while a game was going to figure out his game plan.

Personally I don't have a problem with this. Tabletop has to have the 4 minute time. But in PBeM, I've never seen the problem with plotting out the move ... especially since the game still only allows you to take your turn once.

Galak

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Wed Sep 18, 2002 2:08 am

GalakStarscraper wrote:Now this is a interesting debate.

See one of the things I like about PBeM is that the players have tons of time to really plan their moves ... BB becomes more of a strategy when you have time to weigh the options.

Map out your options consider the consequences. Now I still do my normal turn in 3 to 4 minutes but I occassionally do take a little longer to think it out.

Now some of the coaches have time to turn. For instance the runner up in season 1 of the MBBL2 was my brother Dennis. He used to come to work a 40 minutes early while a game was going to figure out his game plan.

Personally I don't have a problem with this. Tabletop has to have the 4 minute time. But in PBeM, I've never seen the problem with plotting out the move ... especially since the game still only allows you to take your turn once.

Galak

Once or not...a huge part of BB is reacting *on the cuff* to the unexpected..a double 1 on your opponents behalf throws eveything to the wind...
I guess what I'm getting at is having to react to the unexpected and having to do it quickly is a major part of BB, and I'd go so far as to argue that the best tournament players can analyse the situation and decide the best course of action within a very short time frame.
Working out permatations at leisure before you do anything, and then doing the same again pending any given dice roll is, IMO the major difference between real time and Pbem.
Not dissing pbem here (I have loads of fun participating in various Pbem leagues, thanks Tom and Spyke!). It's fun, it's still BB, but it really is a whole different ball game.
Pbem's a great tool, and invaluable to those who wouldn't otherwise be able to play, but I do wonder sometimes how those who play exclusively pbem would cope in a limited turn time scenario?
Not intending to insult anybody here or anything..just more or less thinking as I'm typing.
Certainly interesting..

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Sep 18, 2002 2:23 am

Actually this could be very interesting.

Coaches that almost never lose ... suffer losses in PBeM. Coaches like Pariah are powerhouses in their leagues, but have difficulty in PBeM.

I think Woody/Deathwing, you've probably hit on one of the major causes. A great tabletop coach can see a great strategy and has to see it VERY quickly and then execute it. A great PBeM coach just has the ability to come up with great strategies.

So great PBeM coaches can actually suck at tabletop, and it might explain why great coaches in tabletop aren't cleaning up in PBeM. Its allows not so great tabletop coaches the time to come up with the strategies that put them on par with the great tabletop coaches.

Makes a lot of sense to me actually. I was a pretty good tabletop coach, but its been a while since I've been able to use the minis. I've joked that I would get shut out completely in a tabletop tournament becuase of the couple years I've spent playing PBeM.

Not sure. I'd like to think I still have my tabletop skills, but the bottom line it is different.

Is it better/worse ... I can see arguments either way, but its different no doubt. Like I said its an interesting discussion.

Galak

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Wed Sep 18, 2002 2:51 am

I'm not so sure that that the two are mutually exclusive or anything. As I said, I like to approach Pbem with a tabletop mindset..and I don't seem to suffer too much as a result. Then again, one person's experience amounts to diddly squat.
I'm certainly interested in how other coaches who play both Pbem and tabletop approach the different systems. Worth a separate thread/poll possibly?

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Wed Sep 18, 2002 7:43 am

Well I'm with DW on this. I think my turns normally take less than 4 mins (of course since I don't time them who knows how long they really are!). With PBEM I find it much easier to see routes, distances etc due to the top down nature of the board (and there are no over sized bases or Big Guys on their backs causing "square confusion"). In addition picking up your opponent's skills is much quicker too.

I can remember 1 turn where I took considerably longer than 4 mins (I'm sure there are others but this one stands out). That was my last turn in my MBBL match against Brian. I was trying to engineer a 3 stage pushback to try and push one of my guys within reach of the end zone - thus allowing me to tie the game. This required moving players in to fill up the gaps etc..... needless to say I couldn't do it!

But getting to work 40 mins early - wow!

Perhaps the next software upgrade should be a timer. This would start from when you first open the file to when you clicked your opponent's turnmarker. This may require a bit of a change to the program since it would need to know the difference between a kick off and a turn and would need to warn a player that they hadn't clicked a turnmarker on saving the game. However, it would be very interesting to see the times taken by players even if there was no time limit for the game itself. Of course, if you had to minimise the file as your boss came over for a chat..... that could use up a lot of time!

Dave

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Wed Sep 18, 2002 8:17 am

Have to agree i take my turns as quick as possible 3-4 mins would be a bout right, Never really considered taking half hour to plan every strategy, and to be honest i haven't got the time to do that anyway.