New League anyone interested?

Be it FUMBBL, PBeM, the Cyanide Computer Game, VASSAL or whatever - talk about online play here.

This is also the place for discussing the various tools for managing leagues, teams and so on.

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GalakStarscraper
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Post by GalakStarscraper »

Planatgenet wrote:I thought of cheating....... there is nothing you really do to counter it, if people want to cheat they will.
Actually both of the major online leagues FUMBBL for SkiJunkie and the MBBL2 for PBeM have pretty good cheat protections built into them and the way the leagues are set up.

Cheaters are VERY common in online BB. If you assume that honesty is the rule, the cheaters will run your league over in a heartbeat.

Galak

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Post by Planatgenet »

I agree with what you are saying on the fact an open would feel less intense. Perhaps a way to allow people to play and drop out without effecting people and still maintain sense of competition is to play an open set league. Say we have 20 people in the league, each coach has to play 10 games (maybe more maybe less, its detail at the end of the day). Each coach is only allowed to play another twice. We set a period for these ten games maybe 5 months. Once these 1st ten games are played thats it no other results count towards the league result for this season. The top two players meet for a superbowl type play off to decide who has won. Coaches who play lots of games can still play on and try and ruin other peoples ten games.

Or another way is to setup a jump league. This works by allowing a coach who beats another coach to jump one place above him in the league table. So in order to go up the league you have to play the people higher up the table. Say we have 100 coaches and I am placed 60th and I play against the player 30th in the league and win, I would then become 30th in the league and he would become 31st. If we draw we both become 45th and if I lose I stay where I am. After a set length of time the season ends and it all starts again. Nice thing about this type of league is everyone can always do well as they could just be one game away from 1st place. Helps keep interest high, and means new teams joining mid season could still win.

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Grumbledook
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Post by Grumbledook »

That sounds like the ladder formats that I have played in back in my old quake days. You play someone higher than you, if you win you go half way up the ladder between you and them and they stay where they are. This means the player who is first can only get knocked off by the player in second place. This is better than if you win you just go above them, this filters the better teams to the top, where a lucky win over the team at the top when you have a really low ranking doesn't mean you can jump up the whole ladder to first place. To get to the top you have to play more games and earn you way up it instead. This i suppose would work better than a league. Also if you don't play for say 3 weeks than you should drop 5 places, because you could sit at the top and just not play anyone and then end up staying there.

Also If someone is say within 20 TR of your team and they challenge you, you have to play them (unless your on holiday or something) If you don't then you shoudl swap positions, this stops teams from avoiding certain races, which kinda sucks. Then again no one likes to play against a team that just fouls the whole match and doesn't attempt to actually try and win the game. Not sure how you could counter this, cause that kind of coach will aim to do that however you penalise them.

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vorner23
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Post by vorner23 »

Ok jumping back a few steps.

Grumbledook has a point. I can't really see the point of allowing hundreds of teams in and having an open format.

The whole point of this league will be to promote reports and rivalries within the league. A round by round system will make things more interesting. If an open system is adopted some people take the game to heart and play 30 games. While others will only play a few without having fixtures arranged for them.

Also the problem that the client cannot process handicaps means that the potential gap between teams could be huge:- If an open system is adopted. Even if the ratings are widely different between teams, in a round system this is fairer. Because the teams have at least played the same number of games. So it is more likely that they will be evenly matched.

As for cheating.... well this happens if you let it. The problem with allowing games in person is that it allows for alot of abuse. This isn't meant to replace playing BB face to face, it is an alternative. So to combine the two seems a little silly. Added to the fact that many people won't be able to play f2f and its unfair to discriminate against them.

Its offering something different to play round by round. If after a season everyone agrees it hasn't worked wecan always change it!

So I think.... its gonna stay small to begin with. 15 other teams to pit your skill against should be enough to organise!

Smaller divisions might be interesting. Say 16 teams (or however, many it turns out to be) in 4 divisions. After one season these could be moved to a Premier 1, 2 and 3 division. Being so small people will really be able to move divisions (up or down!) quite quickly. This will give players fresh challenges.

Along with the good idea of having a star players table hall of fame etc. Among other things for the coaches to have other things to compete about.

So to recap.... er again. Small league. Round by round. Cheaters are shot in the nuts.

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Grumbledook
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Post by Grumbledook »

I think cheaters should be piled on by a fat man.

4 divisions of 4 sounds good, play one game a week play each team twice.

Use the first seasons ranking to order the teams into 4 divisions and the following seasons bottom and top from the divisions will swap over, top of top div is that seasons winner.

Sounds clean and simple, have to get coaches that will play once a week (when possable) and who won't leave their team after some bad results.

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Post by Planatgenet »

Thats the problem with a set game standard. If you play a game and have half your team wiped out which lets face it has happened to most of us at least once the motivation to play again is very low. As one bad game can effectively mean that your team has no chance of winning again. If this happens in the first game of the season, then a lot of people will just drop out.

People need to feel that can still win! The type of League you guys are suggesting sounds more like the type of game you play for a tournament. If it was done in a tournament style format at special times during a season while a ladder style league ran in the background I would think you would be better able to hold peoples interest. Perhaps having the ladder league running a whole year, with maybe 4 of these more intense leagues/tournament type games running. You could introduce special handicaps for them so that new teams could still play established ones. Also would teams winning the league want to risk the best players dying in a tournament. Prizes for these tournaments could be the option to run in a super league the next year as these players would have proved they were able to stay the distance of a more strict league system.

Dont get me wrong I think a 4 team 4division solution would be great but a bad game could mean that the season could seem awfully long with no chance of winning. The feeling you are there just to make up the numbers is never very fun! But I am willing to try it once

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Grumbledook
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Post by Grumbledook »

Any team any time can get a bad result which can cripple the team, its just a risk you take.

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Post by Planatgenet »

yep true, and I agree it is a risk you take it is Blood Bowl after all. :P

But people play the game for fun and this tends to be a major reason why people drop out of set leagues.

Vorner mentioned there was no handicap system - we would have to work out one that the client would understand. Even if it was just something as simple as giving the weaker team an extra reroll for the match or 3 or 4 magic sponges for after the game. :lol:

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Grumbledook
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Post by Grumbledook »

You can't currently do things like that in the client, unless you edit it into the team sheet before the match starts. In the fumbbl we just play whoever we want with no handicap system. If you feel the gap is too large then you don't play, my goblins tend to play whoever tho ;]

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Post by vorner23 »

Well the only thing we can really do is allow a team restarting fee if the team is whopped.

Say someone loses 3 players at the start of the season I fully agree it would reduce the fun for them. So they can be granted a restart fee if this is the case. Just like starting a new team.

If they get decimated later on in the season then, they should have managed the team well enough to have spare cash to meet the loss of players.

To my way of thinking if you run a armour weak team, you have to learn how to protect them and how to plan for injuries and deaths.

The whole point of a league is to see how a team copes over an extended period of time. That means strains and bonuses of experience.

So I propose that if a team deems it is too battered to be a viable opponent it can choose to restart at the mil gold set up fee. All SPP etc lost. That way they'll be able to get back into contention, after all a season doesn't run too long anyway.

How does that sound?

The problem with selecting handicaps is one of logistics. What is fair and what is unfair? Plus how do you implement a particular bonus?
Best to keep things simpler to begin with. Plus my earlier point applies, in a round system the teams should be more fairly matched anyway.

Yes people may drop out of the league. That happens. However, after a few rounds it will be obvious who is a serious player and who isn't. It's only fair to ask for a little commitment from each player, and one game a week or less isn't asking too much I think!?!?

So the first task is getting coaches to enter who are willing to stay for at least 1 season. 6 maybe 10 games. (Not exactly alot.) And second throwing out timewasters. There's no need for this to become the Hitler League! but its only fair to the other coaches to get rid of people who only want to participate half heartedly. Plus if the league is limited in size there will soon be others who'll want in. It would be unfair to exclude one of these for a waste of space coach?

WOW :D

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christer
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Post by christer »

Vorner, I truly wish you luck on your league. My attempt at a fixed schedule league kinda broke down.

10 teams in a 5 round swiss style schedule. One match per week.

But it kinda broke down. One week can be tight for some particular matches to be played due to timezones and real life commitments. On the other hand, extending to two weeks will make it progress slowly, so it's a difficult question...

Anyway, good luck to you. It would be great to see a fluff league out there.. And another javabbowl league would certainly not hurt :)

-- Christer

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Darkson
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Post by Darkson »

If you go for the 4x4 league format rather than having divisions 1,2 etc have North, South, East & West (much like NFL). Team plays other teams in division once (or twice depending on games in a season) and then a no. of random teams from the other divisions, leading to the play-offs.
This wil allow immediate rivallys to develop but still allow teams to play someone different occansionally, and players can always ask to move divisions at the end of the season, or the leagues could be completely re-drawn at the end. This is how I ran our (small tabletop) league, which I know is a diferent beast altogether.

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Dinaturz
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Post by Dinaturz »

Sorry vorner,

You talked many times about your web site, but I cannot find the address, can you please post it again? :oops:

thanks...

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Grumbledook
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Post by Grumbledook »

He said its not up yet ;]

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Post by Planatgenet »

He showed me an offline copy very nice. I will try to help him get it up this weekend

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