Why Cyanide BB isn't getting any better...

[dode74]

You're assuming these things weren't reported during Beta testing

[Waldorf28]

I agree and I make no apologies for them. All I know is I have a day without the wife and kids tomorrow and I'll be getting up at 10am and playing solidly for the next seven hours and enjoying every minute. That's worth a tenner of my money.

[Thadrin]

You're assuming these things weren't reported during Beta testing

Which would just make the situation WORSE...Knowing about a bug and not fixing it pre release? That's bordering on criminal negligence.

[burgun824]

Not that one should make excuses for a poor product but lets face it, how plausible would it be to have every bug worked out a game as complex to program as Blood Bowl with all of it's infinite variables AND still meet a marketing deadline? Especially if you know that you've got time to release a patch to fix them post product release.

The consumer can be an extremely demanding, finicky, and subjective individual, as evidenced by these boards. Realistically speaking, the folks at Cyanide have a deadline to meet and they likely know that they aren't going to make everyone happy, so there you have it.

Not the way I would choose to run my business, but just throwing that out there for discussion...and to play Devil's Advocate.

[Darkson]

Especially if you know that you've got time to release a patch to fix them post product release.

I'd agree with you if Cyanide did that, but seeing as the majority of bugs on the (long) bug list thread are ones that were reported in the closed beta for BB1, again in the open beta and again on release, and they still haven't fixed them 3 years later I think shows that getting a game from them in hope they'll get it working correctly later is pretty foolish.

Cyanide suck.

[WhatBall]

Not that one should make excuses for a poor product but lets face it, how plausible would it be to have every bug worked out a game as complex to program as Blood Bowl with all of it's infinite variables AND still meet a marketing deadline?

Just to give you a comparison in how Cyanide works, versus say an certain independent doing a similar type game. I am currently testing version 0.8.8 of the FFB client. There are about a dozen or so doing the beta testing, using a combination of bug reports and a spreadsheet tracking system to ensure all the skills and skill combos are covered as thoroughly as possible. Yesterday I tested about 5 or 6 skills thoroughly and all the weather variables. I reported 3 bugs, all of which were fixed within hours. Also, everything I retested that was broken in 0.8.7 and reported fixed in 0.8.8 was indeed fixed. This is just two guys (one main dev and one doing support I believe) on their part time. I puts the 'professional' operation to shame.

The missing skills like Fan Factor and Pass Block and Mercs are coming along nicely. Excited to try the bombs and B&C soon, the last skills to come. Then there is already some talk on a few of the cards working their way in.

Sorry to sound like an advert, but I am just trying to show the varied levels of commitment in the two projects.

[Brunificus]

Not that one should make excuses for a poor product but lets face it, how plausible would it be to have every bug worked out a game as complex to program as Blood Bowl with all of it's infinite variables AND still meet a marketing deadline?

Just to give you a comparison in how Cyanide works, versus say an certain independent doing a similar type game. I am currently testing version 0.8.8 of the FFB client. There are about a dozen or so doing the beta testing, using a combination of bug reports and a spreadsheet tracking system to ensure all the skills and skill combos are covered as thoroughly as possible. Yesterday I tested about 5 or 6 skills thoroughly and all the weather variables. I reported 3 bugs, all of which were fixed within hours. Also, everything I retested that was broken in 0.8.7 and reported fixed in 0.8.8 was indeed fixed. This is just two guys (one main dev and one doing support I believe) on their part time. I puts the 'professional' operation to shame.

The missing skills like Fan Factor and Pass Block and Mercs are coming along nicely. Excited to try the bombs and B&C soon, the last skills to come. Then there is already some talk on a few of the cards working their way in.

Sorry to sound like an advert, but I am just trying to show the varied levels of commitment in the two projects.

One group does it for the love of the game, the other does it for the $'s. I've only recently started playing FUMBBL, and while it isn't perfect it's closer than Cyanide is.

[WhatBall]

One group does it for the love of the game, the other does it for the $'s. I've only recently started playing FUMBBL, and while it isn't perfect it's closer than Cyanide is.

True enough.

The recent beta testing for FFB is as a result of Kalimar not being completely happy with the way the code was done, so he rewrote most of the back end to allow for a more robust client with more customization. Hence the heavy testing again. I also worked with Garion to test a number of options that will be available to leagues. These will allow most (all?) of Plasmoid's narrow tier rules and Galak's changes. These features are all in the game as options and working great:

maxPlayersOnField (default: 11)
A maximum of X players may be set up on the field. (Great for 7s and Street Bowl rules)

maxPlayersInWideZone (default: 2)
A maximum of X players may be set up in a widezone.

minPlayersOnLos (default: 3)
A minimum of X players must be set up on the line of scrimmage. (Great for 7s and Street Bowl rules)

clawDoesNotStack (default: off)
Claw does not stack with other skills that modify armour rolls.

foulBonus (default: off)
+1 to armour roll for a foul.

foulBonusOutsideTacklezone (default: off)
+1 to armour roll for a foul, if fouler is not in an opposing tacklezone.

pilingOnDoesNotStack (default: off)
Piling On does not stack with other skills that modify armour- or injury-rolls.

pilingOnInjuryOnly (default: off)
Piling On lets you re-roll injury-rolls only.

pilingOnArmorOnly (default: off)
Piling On lets you re-roll armour-rolls only.

pilingOnToKoOnDouble (default: off)
Piling On player knocks himself out when rolling a double on armour or injury.

rightStuffCancelsTackle (default: off)
Right Stuff prevents Tackle from negating Dodge for Pow/Pushback.

secretWeaponPenaltyRoll (default: off)
Secret Weapons use a Penalty Roll to see if they get banned. (Used for Stunty Leeg, similar to LRB4 rolls)

sneakyGitAsFoulGuard (default: off)
Sneaky Git works like Guard for fouling assists

sneakyGitBanToKo (default: off)
Sneaky Git players that get banned are sent to the KO box instead.

[MattDakka]

One group does it for the love of the game, the other does it for the $'s. I've only recently started playing FUMBBL, and while it isn't perfect it's closer than Cyanide is.

And it doesn't cost a dime.

[burgun824]

One group does it for the love of the game, the other does it for the $'s. I've only recently started playing FUMBBL, and while it isn't perfect it's closer than Cyanide is.

This is ultimately my point. Cyanide is trying to make money. I doubt that any of them are as big of fans of the game as most folks on here are. If people want to give them their money and enjoy their product then I don't think we should hold it against Cyanide. And you can't really hold it against the people that are giving them their money.

The bottom line is that if you think the product sucks then you don't buy it. I don't own any Cyanide products. But I also don't blame Cyanide for trying to make money. I DO think that they should fix known problems with their game as that's just honest business. However, I don't have a frame of reference as to whether they actually do this on some level or not because I haven't dealt with them first hand. I can only assume based on the individuals that post on these forums that I wouldn't recommend anyone buy one of their games unless they found it in a clearance bin for under $10. But I don't think we should grab our torches and pitch forks and head off to Cyanide Studios to kill everyone we see either. Just don't buy their s#!++y product anymore, that's all.

[SillySod]

The problem with the Cyanide game is that they are about to release the fourth product using the same code. So yes, a commercial entity can't necessarily be expected to make endless corrections before release but on the other hand its probably fair to hope that they might make an effort before releasing a second (and third, and fourth) version of the game.

They are entitled to sell their game in however many forms they like. It is their game and they are a business. However, at some point it stops being ethical, even if it is an astute business practice.

As for complexity... I can believe that the code is complex but Cyanide will have created most of the complexity themselves. The bloodbowl game mechanics are not overly complex relative to other games on the market.

[dode74]

My understanding regarding the code is that the person who wrote it initially doesn't work there any more. pmcc is working on someone else's code, and I am led to believe that is quite difficult.

Not making excuses, simply trying to add to the facts

[burgun824]

They are entitled to sell their game in however many forms they like. It is their game and they are a business. However, at some point it stops being ethical, even if it is an astute business practice.

I completely agree with this. However, I would like to point out that the line of ethics can be really wide and really gray. And again I fully and openly admit that I'm arguing this point from just what I've read here on these forums.

I guess my reason for chiming in on a topic that I don't have a lot of knowledge on is that I don't understand (and likely never will) why folks get all bent out of shape over certain things. I think that this topic for the most part has been pretty successful in generating conversation and opinions, but then the last couple of pages have gotten a little hot in some areas. And it's not that I don't personally find it entertaining, but I truly sit back and say to myself sometimes, "Come on guys. Are you seriously getting THAT pissed off about something THIS silly?"

Then the antagonist in me decides to go to work.

[spubbbba]

I agree with you burgun, whinging and over negativity on the forums achieves nothing, in fact it can be counter productive as they can just dismiss you as a serial complainer who will never be happy. The trouble with the internet is that a few hysterical and active posters can make something look like a major issue.

I think we as consumers should rationally state the flaws we see with the product and what needs to be rectified for us to purchase the new version. Then we can decide if it is worth spending out money. Some people just want to play the game and have fun and don’t really care if the rules are not exactly following crp or even if the game crashes occasionally.

[Chris]

pilingOnToKoOnDouble (default: off)
Piling On player knocks himself out when rolling a double on armour or injury.

Interesting options - taking the one above is it relatively easy to change the consequence from KO to stun, cas, kill etc? (Game with all players with piling on and instant kills would be a bizarre risk filed event!)