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 Post subject: Re: Additional deviations from CRP seen in BB2 trailer
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:45 am 
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Pretty sure that Dorf coach is writing a broken RNG forum topic as we speak! Would have been a funny match to spectate. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Additional deviations from CRP seen in BB2 trailer
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:39 pm 
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harvestmouse wrote:
Pretty sure that Dorf coach is writing a broken RNG forum topic as we speak! Would have been a funny match to spectate. :lol:


At least the catching blitzer had NoS. Not sure why he had it tho!


Edit: i can now see why kicks scatter by so much.


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 Post subject: Re: Additional deviations from CRP seen in BB2 trailer
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:11 pm 
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Regash wrote:
this means "Byebye Pass Block" for all who want to play BB2, I guess.

Although it should have been included for completeness, it won't be missed by me, it's a terribad skill.
On the bright side: noob coaches won't pick it.

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 Post subject: Re: Additional deviations from CRP seen in BB2 trailer
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:12 pm 
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harvestmouse wrote:
legowarrior wrote:
The PC version lacks the ability to paint and mod your figures, so the game will never be able to for fill all that desires of people who prefer the table top. It will always miss something, especially for those who see Blood Bowl, and table top in general, as more of a hobby, rather than just a game.


Is this true? I was under the impression if you had the skills you could mod the players in the BB game. From a personal point of view. I was a massive lead collector. From the age of 7 up to around 4 years ago I collected figures and painted them to a high level. Even after I started playing FUMBBL, I was still motivated in painting figures due to using them on portraits on FUMBBL. I felt and I guess still do, that actual figure player portraits should be (or are better as) official figures or pictures.

Sadly, that was taken away. I didn't think it would affect me much, but it must have. For some reason I have totally lost interest in painting figures and instead I paint icons for Java clients. This appears to have replaced my interest in painting totally. In short PC figure painting has replaced real figure painting. I can also model figures how I want them to be.

legowarrior wrote:
So why bother competing at all with that. Dawn of War didn't, and it's much more fun than table top version, when it comes to the actual game itself (not the things surrounding it).


Dawn of War isn't Warhammer 40k, it's using the Warhammer 40k universe/IP. It's not pretending to be the TT game. So, using that as an example and what you say further on......... is that you want to replace the game with an RTS? It's no longer BB then, it's a game based in the BB universe/on the IP. Why would the community here want that? Why would Cyanide want that after the last RTS version was poorly received and was not popular?

legowarrior wrote:
Heck, even Table Top Fantasy is not staying true to it's roots, and instead using Total War as the engine in question. It is looks unbelievable!


Yes it does, but again this isn't Warhammer Fantasy Battle. It's a game based in the Warhammer universe. I too am excited by Total War; and in a way it may replace WFB, due to that going off on some sort of acid trip. But the game it is not, it's not even pretending to be the game.

legowarrior wrote:
Why can't we just admit that what the at least part of the community wants will never be replicated on any other platform, other than table top, and move away from that.


Because what assurances do we have that they'll be interested in any other type of game based in the BB world? I'm pretty sure (based on BB 1) that the most interest you can get from the game is with a game that plays like the TT game. It's a popular format, moving away from that (I'm guessing you're hinting at RTS) isn't what people want at all, certainly not here.

Would it be popular? Yeah maybe. Would it be popular with 'the community' (community being BB players) I really don't think so. I think you'd be looking at a younger and less permanent player base. I think you're barking up the wrong tree, I really do. Especially for here. I also think you'd have a lot less interest in buying add-ons like extra teams. RTS teams would play much more a like than TBS teams. Also as the community is used to different teams, they'll want to collect them for the computer game. It's a good long term money making strategy (as long as the playerbase feel ok forking out the cash).

legowarrior wrote:
(okay, I wouldn't, but that's because I don't plan sport games, but I just don't like that box we've put CRP in).


What box we've put what in? I get the feeling that you were new with CRP. It's been a couple of years since I last ran across you, and certainly then I think you lacked experience and knowledge of the game. And certainly on how to handle the community. Has that changed?

My conclusion is that I think and they know that keeping to BB is the best way of making a Turn Based game to work. However they feel they need to pump it up a bit, and/or to call it BB2 they need to change somethings. Aka the CRP+ stuff, and new rosters. So they're tweaking, which in principle maybe a good idea. bulldozing the game, with the knowledge (or lack of) they have, would in my opinion be suicide.



Hi Harvest Mouse. You are correct that my forays into Blood Bowl have been relatively recent. Mostly I started playing with the start of the Blood Bowl PC game, although I was active on FUMBBL for a while. My experience with Blood Bowl is not as a hobbyist in any sense of the word. In general, I don't do table top miniature game. I don't paint, or put together models. I first experience Warhammer with Shadow of Horned Rat, and Rites of War. I enjoyed the universe of 40K and Fantasy, but although I have looked at the origins, that sort of hobby is too time consuming for me. Games like Dawn of War caught my interest because I didn't need to bother with the painting or the putting together of the armies.

Dawn of War felt like the true version of 40K with units flying around and warring on each other. You could see you necro army march cross the field, rather than push static pieces around. Dawn of War was the promise of a more pure gaming experience without the burdens that table top presents. The rules could be handled out the Computer, so the action didn't need to stop, and the game made sense and was balanced. I could play against my friends knowing the victory or defeat was on me. I didn't have to buy and put together pieces for the sake of the game (and watch and GW decides to change all the rules).

Which takes my to complaint of Blood Bowl in general, which will not be popular on this site (and I understand why). Blood Bowl is a game of friends, were people play against others with a wide range of skills. Like any small community, to keep it fun, you have to find ways of limiting your advantage, increase the change. Blood Bowl did that by making teams that were wacky but weak. And that disappointed me.

I've always enjoyed the rare and the wacky despite my mediocre skill level. In games such as Master of Magic, Age of Wonders and Warhammer Battlecry, you could find nations that were wacky, but not weak. Age of Wonders 3 gives us halflings with fireworks that have increased chance to dodge attacks but lower health. Challenging, sure, but once you've mastered it, no worse than any other nation.

Instead, with Blood Bowl, I find so many interesting teamss, but if I want to be competitive, half the teams are left off the field. Halflings, Goblins, Ogres seem like fun teams, with great histories and abilities, but fall flat on the field on purpose. They are designed to suck. And that's great on a league of 10 or so people, when people have different skills levels, but when you play a game online, I don't want to play a joke team. And I don't want to face a joke team. I want a good game, and honest challenge, were skill and dice make the difference. If I play with friends, I'd like to be able to handle the handicap on my own. Maybe play a team where I decide not to take block on any players, or maybe the other team gets a wizards for free.

So, what happens when Blood Bowl is played on the internet with strangers. With blood bowl on the computer, we end up with the black box, and teams with one claw/mighty blow/pile on player, and rookies. Games were people game the system to their advantage. Everyone gets block because that is the best skill. And that makes Blood Bowl a sad place to game, if you aren't looking to make a claw/mighty blow/pile on player.

The internet has shown us what can be wrong with blood bowl, and magnified it 100x. What was once okay with 10 or so friends, gets blown out of proportion, if you don't find small online leagues to play with.

So, this has lead me to shun blood bowl in general. What is a great idea for a game gets ruined because the internet will take whatever design you have and try to break it. And since Blood Bowl players can't ever agree on changes, I'd like Cyanide avoid the politics of improving the table top (if that's possible) and take the wonderful themes and background of blood bowl, and make an original game, like Dawn of War. Something that plays tribute to what makes blood bowl great on the table top, but takes advantages of what a computer can do, and avoids the pitfalls.

I appreciate Blood Bowl, and appreciate that what I see as flaws are considered to be features by others. But you can see on FUMBBL, the internet can take the rules and break much better than any small group of friends can.

Again, this is the perceptive of a PC gamer first and foremost. A person with little interest in the hobby side of things. And a person with such a huge backlog on steam, that maybe I shouldn't say anything at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Additional deviations from CRP seen in BB2 trailer
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:47 pm 
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Nice post LW, I appreciate you being candid.

I have 4 points to make.

The first regarding CPOMB, the hype of this combo is more than it's actual potency. Don't get me wrong, the combo is broken, and it does allow those with less skill to win more games. However good coaching will in most situations still overcome the dumbwits blanket CPOMBing.

FUMBBL is indeed becoming a problem, it concerns me. More and more 'sweet spotting' is becoming accepted as the norm. This really shouldn't be blood bowl. However there are very good coaches sitting on a certain TV and winning 80% of their games. It appears that as the player base changes, more and more this is accepted.

The problem with your weaker teams (goblins, ogres and flings) isn't tiers but TV. Actually goblins can be really competitive with inducements. I really think in perpetual leagues matching by TV isn't the answer. It really needs to be matched on win percentages (of the team). However, the perpetual environments need to look at modern gaming and giving awards for doing well. So teams are encouraged not to sweetspot. For me TV is a real nightmare outside of low TV and resurrection.

The game does play well. I think it would be interesting to take the BB IP and use it in another way (aka Dawn of War) but BB is a different beast to WFB or 40k. Those games take a long long time and there are so many more variables. A game even with a client that did a lot of the work for you is going to take several hours. So as a computer game (and a console game even more) this really wouldn't work. However with a client doing a lot of the stuff for you, BB works. You can play games in an hour or just over usually, perfect for a strategy game. So you have to look at popularity. Which would be more popular? For BB is that you know you have a community that will stick with it. This is important for the added races etc. With a RTS or a game based on the IP, you're really shooting at a dart board in the dark. Sure you'll probably get more of a younger audience buying the game, but will they stick with it? Chances are slim. And as for the GW branding right now? Hmmmmm they're really approaching a cross roads, being GW doesn't necessarily sell games anymore. Personally, I think it'd be fun, but nigh on suicidal trying to release any BB game bar the official product (plus their little add ons).

A final and extra point (in FUMBBL's defence) the 1 CPOMBer low TV box team builds have been given the 2 bricks. This isn't the problem is once was. Sure high TV is the same still, but min-maxing long term doesn't have the same effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Additional deviations from CRP seen in BB2 trailer
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:44 pm 
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Quote:
Personally, I think it'd be fun, but nigh on suicidal trying to release any BB game bar the official product (plus their little add ons).
I think something along the lines of Frozen Cortex (formerly Endzone) could work really nicely.


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 Post subject: Re: Additional deviations from CRP seen in BB2 trailer
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:38 pm 
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Well I think releasing something new is a risk. Particularly as they have a guaranteed seller....makes it a no brainer. Also with their licence (or whatever it is) what are they allowed to do?


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 Post subject: Additional deviations from CRP seen in BB2 trailer
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:43 pm 
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No sale on this game with the removal of Pass Block. It's a skill I take on Elf Catchers and well worth the effort :)

Mostly not buying due to cynical DLC nonsense. I will wait a bit for all the teams in one pack


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 Post subject: Re: Additional deviations from CRP seen in BB2 trailer
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:26 pm 
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harvestmouse wrote:
Well I think releasing something new is a risk. Particularly as they have a guaranteed seller....makes it a no brainer.


Do they though, if people are still able to play BB1 online what reason do they have to upgrade? I'm unsure how much of an appeal prettier graphics and more 1 player options has compared to additional cost and initially less teams.

Cyanide could actually benefit from the BBRC being around, then they could do a Fifa. Tweak the rules a bit, add some new teams and stars but essentially release the same game every few years.

Actually a campaign with historic teams and players might be cool, they could have some special rules that only apply to the those games.

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 Post subject: Re: Additional deviations from CRP seen in BB2 trailer
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:37 pm 
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spubbbba wrote:
Cyanide could actually benefit from the BBRC being around, then they could do a Fifa. Tweak the rules a bit, add some new teams and stars but essentially release the same game every few years.


Now I have images of them making Blood Bowl Ultimate Team!


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 Post subject: Re: Additional deviations from CRP seen in BB2 trailer
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:58 am 
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spubbbba wrote:
harvestmouse wrote:
Well I think releasing something new is a risk. Particularly as they have a guaranteed seller....makes it a no brainer.


Do they though, if people are still able to play BB1 online what reason do they have to upgrade? I'm unsure how much of an appeal prettier graphics and more 1 player options has compared to additional cost and initially less teams.

Cyanide could actually benefit from the BBRC being around, then they could do a Fifa. Tweak the rules a bit, add some new teams and stars but essentially release the same game every few years.

Actually a campaign with historic teams and players might be cool, they could have some special rules that only apply to the those games.


Well time and time again we have seen that once you make something obsolete, it doesn't last. It doesn't matter how much support you have, over time the community will either stop playing or spill over to the new game. Once it reaches 50% then you'll be looking at a mass exodus from BB1.

In a way isn't this a bit like FIFA? I mean they've called it BB2, and they're making some changes by adding a new team (at least 1 new team) and making some rule changes. The other motivation for them releasing a new game (correct me if I am wrong here) is the coding, isn't it? The original game's coding has become a bit messy with patches and repairs.

Although a BBRC maybe useful in releasing a new game, I could see a conflict of interests. A BBRC would not have commercial interests at heart, where Cyanide would. This could lead to a break down in communications or worse the BBRC becoming a Cyanide puppet group.

Personally I don't think Cyanide's BB1 will last long, maybe up to a year if they're slow making BB2 viable. After that who knows? If they do a good job, is there any need for a BB3? And if not, how many add ons can you give BB2?


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 Post subject: Re: Additional deviations from CRP seen in BB2 trailer
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:12 am 
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I don't think it is much like Fifa due to a specific loyalty model that game has, but I can see where you are coming from and do agree that BB1 will be gone in a year.

I consider it to be more like call of duty, battlefield, arma etc. The old game is still perfectly viable and will have had long standing support around not just that game but also the series. When arma 3 came out many communities stuck with arma 2 as the new game was not complete in the same way bb2 will lack many teams. But enough people will get it that communities divide and seeing the writing on the wall they shift after a few months.

The fifa model is far more immediate (the only lag is the christmas present delay), as the release is timed for the new season and people want the updated teams. There is also more scope for improvements such as graphics and controller tweaks that makes the gameplay quite different. So i don't think it will be as quick a change as fifa, but there are some potential features (such as house rules) that could make it faster.

If cyanide really wanted to monetise it they could always make Blood Bowl : Ultimate Team!


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 Post subject: Re: Additional deviations from CRP seen in BB2 trailer
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:30 am 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
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Wulfyn wrote:
When arma 3 came out many communities stuck with arma 2 as the new game was not complete in the same way bb2 will lack many teams. But enough people will get it that communities divide and seeing the writing on the wall they shift after a few months.
I don't think that this is the same.
If we were talking about a computer game only then yes, you are right, They made changes in the new version and you have to live with that.

But right now we're talking about a tabletop game brought to the computer.

I'm not talking about the UI, the graphics, the controls. Cyanide can do everything they want to their game. What I'm talking about is the rules, the mechanics this game works on. This should not be tempered with. It's almost like tabletop works this way and PC game works completely different. The rules are the least they should keep their hands from. They have so many features to justify BB2 like the new, flexible AI that plays different for any kind of team. Why the bretonnians? Why kicking skills out of the game?

Communities may divide, yes. But it should be their decision.
It shouldn't be forced by someone messing around with the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Additional deviations from CRP seen in BB2 trailer
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:20 pm 
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A BB Ultimate Team would be interesting. Star Players already have Star Player Cards so they could use them. The only problem with this idea is that there are no way near enough Star Players. Ok, they could make a up a lot of standard players or players with a skill or 2. However to make it viable and for teams not to be mass duplication, they'd need far far more stars. I think it'd be hard to keep the correct feel, and would probably dilute the whole experience.

I think where BB has more in common with FIFA than Call of Duty is that the more modern game actually replaces the old game. Where as with Call of Duty older maps are still popular. So you may play 2,3 or maybe more Call of Duty games at the same time........you probably wouldn't play more than 1 FIFA or BB game. So the CoD games increase your library of maps (ok over time the older games lose populary but you can still find games on World at War or Black Ops 1 with players that want to play a specific map) , a new FIFA game makes the older product pretty much redundant.

I can't see BB becoming as uniform as an EA product (and wouldn't want it to be) however the format is there......maybe a once every 3 or 4 year turn around......who knows?


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 Post subject: Re: Additional deviations from CRP seen in BB2 trailer
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:27 pm 
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harvestmouse wrote:
Also with their licence (or whatever it is) what are they allowed to do?
Pretty much whatever they want, it seems. They chose to go the board game route.


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