MBBL2 Round 3

[GalakStarscraper]

Okay my 2 cents ...

The previous version of Grudge Match was COMPLETELY worthless ... adding the D3 random dirty players to it was to give it some kick.

I also completely disagree that not allowing your opponent to foul was a good handicap result .... in my experience there has been VERY limited fouling the MBBL2 .... so the change to that all the rolls are 6 for ejections is just changing the fouling back the original 3rd edition rules for ejection ... not that much.

I will also point out that NOTHING in Blood Bowl currently demands that you field all available players. If Martyn wants to bench the ghouls for the rest of the match then he can. The only MUST for setting up is to put 3 players if available on the line after that its optional ... this is currently on the list for clarification for the BBRC, but I'm hoping that they don't require you to field all your players if you are 11 or under in Reserves ... being able to protect a star player when you're getting killed on the pitch should be the option for a BB coach ... in fact I so believe that I'll probably house rule it for the MBBL2 if the BBRC clarifies that you have to field all available players up to 11.

So Martyn my advice ... don't field the ghouls and finish out the match ... if you get to the point where you have to field a ghoul to put 3 players on the LOS ... conceed.

Galak

I still think Dangerous Dave is smoking something if he thinks my handicap changes were too powerful ... bah!

[Dangerous Dave]

Well maybe I'm smoking something... but its more likely to be liquid! However, if 2 Handicap rolls fundamentally change the whole game so much so that one of the Coaches is looking to concede very early in the match then that to me suggests that the effects of the rolls are too powerful.


Dave

[GalakStarscraper]

Dave .... okay way back machine with me here and maybe you'll understand why I don't understand Martyn's reaction here.

Vanilla 3rd edition pre-IGMEOY.

Basically ejection was a 6+ roll all the time and fouling assists were for ANY adjacent player ... Dirty Player was +2 to Armour AND injury. If you drew the Grudge Match match you got unlimited fouling.

McDeth's BB2k1 game with the handicaps.

Ejection roll is a 6+ roll all the time, fouling assists use the blocking rules to determine who can help. Dirty Player is now +2 to Armour OR injury. He got Grudge Match will allows unlimited fouling. Then he got 2 extras ... Martyn's ejection rolls for fouling for the match are 4+ and McDeth had D3 RANDOM players get Dirty Player.


Now I played for years in a league that used 3rd edition fouling. So if we were playing in vanilla 3rd edition and McDeth had drawn two Special Play cards:

Grudge Match
AND
a new Dirty Trick card called "New World Fouling" which read:
"For this match, all Dirty Players on both teams may only use the +2 for either armour or injury, but the coach may roll for armour before determining. All fouls this match should use the blocking rules instead of all adjacent players for assists. Both teams will not receive any SPPs for casualties from fouling this match. D3 Random Players from your team get Dirty Player for this match. Your opponent instead of being ejected for rolling doubles when making the fouling armour roll, must roll an extra D6 after fouling. A result of 4+ from this D6 roll means his player is ejected."

Now I want you in all seriousness to tell me that if this Dirty Trick card existed in 3rd edition that you would have thought it was too powerful (remember you don't know anything about BB2k1 for these question). In fact, you may not have even played the card in 3rd edition depending on your style of play ... I know of a couple teams that would not have from my old leagues.

McDeth's two handicap rolls basically is causing him and Martyn to play a 3rd edition Grudge Match game. Now I'm sorry that Martyn is getting beat up, but the bottom line to me is that coaches lasted for years under these conditions, in have Eric Reiter from the MBBL has a league that loved these fouling conditions. And before anyone yells ... yes I understand that the rules were changed because this type of fouling was thought harsh. But that doesn't change the fact to me that all that really has happened in this match is mostly a return to an older rule set for a match. McDeth still have a 1 in 6 chance of ejection each time he puts the boot in.

Martyn can conceed and I won't think any less of him for it. But PLEASE Dave don't think for one minute that Martyn's wanting to conceed indicates that I screwed up with my handicap table revisions. All it means to me is that Grudge Match is 3rd edition was a bad deal for the Undead when playing Chaos Dwarves .... I think this is the better statement than that I messed up with my handicap table revisions.

Galak

[martynq]

OK, current situation is that there is one turn to play (mine) in the first half. McDeth has now scored, so the score is 1-0. I don't know if the three KO'd players recovered from their fouls or not. I'm still going to continue to play, but I suspect that my best ghoul is not actually going to appear on the pitch. He's too valuable to waste in a potentially lethal situation.

McDeth has told me that he intends to tone the fouling down. I'm not sure that he should have to do such a thing, nor that he should have to stick to this. My reaction was probably due to the fact that (I think) only 5 of my players had actually been knocked down, but of these only 1 had ever managed to stand up again. With that rate I was really rather concerned. For the last couple of turns, I just moved the players out of the way so that I could protect them.

Fortunately, I'd had enough sense to keep the best ghoul out of the way during the first drive, and to only field the rookie other ghoul (who was suffering from Morley's Revenge, but is now SI'd.)

Thanks for the advice, Galak. I was thinking that the ghouls probably wouldn't return. As I said earlier, we never fouled much anyway, so Grudge Match in our 3rd edition matches never really counted for much. This is probably why I was so shocked by the activity I was seeing before me.

Cheers,

Martyn

[GalakStarscraper]

I thought this might be the case ... I used to vanilla 3rd fouling and the old Grudge match ... but if you had a league that didn't foul it would be a shock.

I had a feeling this was the problem more than the fact that I overpowered the handicap table.

Galak

[Dangerous Dave]

Sorry Galak but this seems to have touched a nerve. However, I do feel that I am right in this:-


There are 3 big differences between the game Martyn and McDeth are playing than a 3E Grudge Match:-


1 Martyn cannot retaliate without risking a 50% chance of being sent off and a turnover. Under 3E he could still foul once per turn and have only a 1 in 6 chance of being sent off.

2 McDeth gets d3 dirty players to help. Under 3E he may well have had some DPs on his line up. However, other skills would have been lost by selecting the DP skill.

3 If a player was ejected (rolled a double), fouling was basically a non event - a 1 in 6 chance of not being sent off. So under old 3E rules there was a chance that the fouling would stop. For the current game McDeth will not stop - especially while he has some Dirty Players.


So although there are no assists in TZs and DP is +2 or +2, I consider that the current game is worse than would have been played under 3E. Yes, McDeth has less chance of successful fouls but Martyn has minimal chance of retaliating - provided of course that he wanted to try and win the game (although I would be tempted to foul out his dirty players with my Ghouls). Therefore IMO there is a wider gap between the teams under the current changed Handicap roll than under vanilla 3E.

Also perhaps irrelevant but under 3E, all of the Undead players (not Ghouls of course) would regenerate on a 2+ (not 4+). In addition, since there was more cash (Winnings Table and RE cards), no ageing and niggles occured less on SIs, the effects of several casualties on a team were less severe.


OK I might be biased on this because I think that a game plan built around fouling is a very poor way of playing Blood Bowl (I am not blaming McDeth here at all - this is his best shot at winning). The block, foul, casualty game plan is IMO a strategy that doesn't require a lot of skill or tactics. This is why I believe the change from 3E to IGMEOY etc is a much better method. Now, I am not saying fouling should be outlawed - certainly not. For Goblin and 'Fling teams it is a necessary tactic - and involves a bit more skill than fouling with a "normal" team.

But to justify the change by saying that it takes us back to an original state is not right - especially when that state has been changed because it was deemed excessive.


Now I agree that Grudge Match needed to change. Whether d3 Dirty Players is the right number is open to question - it might be OK although I feel it is too much (if you want to average out at 2 players then make it 2 with no roll). However, the change to Under Scrutiny is IMO way over the top. Never getting the IGMEOY counter when you foul (and the opponent always having it) and the opponent not being allowed to use secret weapons is too much. I could live with sending off on a 5+ with the IGMEOY counter - but that is quite a big change.


Finally, I would be interested in whether McDeth feels it is too powerful or not.



Dave

[McDeth]

Have to admit, i've never used fouling as a tactic, to attempt to win by knocking all the opposition of the pitch before, as i agree it spoils for team tactics. I would almost certainly at some point developed a dirty player to take out the opposition star player/s, and use him as expendible.( Until he got sent off).

As regards the situation when the game started i wasn't sure how it was going to turn out. I think perhaps as Martyn has not as he said played in a league where there was much fouling, i think he did leave his players a little exposed early on to the extent, that in the first turn i was able to get a 2 dice block on one of his mummies, which left him down and begging to be fouled with a dirty player, and so the game went on and as Martyn started his first turn with only 9 players he was already in an uncomfortable position. At this point i decided that i would slowly move the ball up the field, shielding by my Dwarves and Bulls, leave a dwarf in the other Mummies tackle zone to stop him from blitzing, and plod slowly downfield, at this point i didn't really expect to get any more fouls in but when the vampire cam perilously close, he became a target i couldn't resist and a quick blitz from my Bull, with an assist had him down and .... well say no more. Martyn's unfortunate ghoul then failed a dodge roll, away from a dwarf, who had no intention of risking a one dice block, just to keep a tackle zone on him. When he went down, guess what the dwarf in his TZ had Dirty player, again an irresistable target.

As to the balance of the game. I'll say this if having just played that first half. if the next came comes around and those handicap rolls were against me i'd be generally worried, the 3 dirty players perhaps beef it up too much. but i have to say, you would have to base your entire gameplan around getting the opposition of the pitch for it to work, which so far it obviously has. The negative side of it, is of course once i'd started i couldn't stop, 1 down 2 down it became infectious, and at half time the only spp earned so far have been for the single touchdown late in the first half. Again where i used the dubious tactic until waiting until my last turn to score, therefore depriving martyn of getting two turn s to score. then what happened Martyn fouled one of my players and got sent off. perhaps the generosity of the rolls have worked in my favour 4 fouls no ejection and four of the pitch, not a single foul if i remember correctly has failed.

in conclusion the two card combo is awesome as long as you are prepared to use it as such and commit to it.

[sean newboy]

Hhhhmmm not sure this is the forum to say this in. End results of Division b Klinkers Tinkers was a 2-1 for the The Syndicate . I have only recieved one file from The Fists but it was early in the first turn and already i ended up with one guy stunned and another Niggled . I dont think the bashers will be winning. As for the Handicap Table, well im not sure changing it just for the occasional times when the rolls add insult to injury, sure wish my 1st rounder Grudge Match had been worth a d***. Me personally im more upset at constantly seeing Knight driven teams eat up all their opponents, and not just because of what they have done to the Bashers 2 seperate times with 2 seperate teams/coaches. But C'est La Vie (not sure if thats correct spelling).

[GalakStarscraper]

Dave, let me show the 3 changes I made to the fouling handicaps:

16 UNDER SCRUTINY: The opposing team may not Foul or use players equipped with Secret Weapons for this match.
23 BIASED REFEREE: The opposing team count as being under the eyes of the referee for the whole match (i.e. all fouls will be spotted on a 4+).
42 GRUDGE MATCH: You may take any number of Foul actions per turn for this match. However you may not foul the same player more than once per team turn.

Okay here were my changes:
16 UNDER SCRUTINY: The opposing team may not use players equipped with Secret Weapons for this match. In addition, the opposing team is under the Referee's eye for the entire match and it will not move to your team even if you foul.
23 BIASED REFEREE: The referee has it out for the other team. The other team may not foul for the entire match.
42 GRUDGE MATCH: You may take any number of Foul actions per turn for this match. However you may not foul the same player more than once per team turn. D3 random players on your team get the Dirty Player skill for this match.

The old 3 were worthless ... Grudge Match with IGMEOY was effectively a complete waste of a roll. If you rolled Under Scrunity and Biased Referee then you lost a handicap roll since the ruling on Biased Referee was that the referee would watch your team as well after the first foul. The 3 rolls were worthless or conflicting. All I did was try to fix this. Getting rid of the IGMEOY counter for a game for a team is NOT a big deal in my opinion ... I personally never minded fouling as a tactic especially with all the negatives against it now. If the concensus is that D3 Dirty Players is too much to give Grudge Match some effect then I will GLADLY change it to 2 random players if you think that would help.

Here's my challenge without completely changing the rolls altogether ... I would be interested in your fix to these 3 rolls as Sean said .. he got Grudge Match his first game and it was junk ... so give me a plan that still doesn't leave a player feeling like he got robbed with a completely ineffective handicap roll for these 3 and make sure that rolling one doesn't eliminate the effects of the other. Oh and make it good for any team. A handicap that just doesn't allow Secret Weapons is junk ... as MOST teams don't even have secret weapons.

Yes you hit a nerve. I'm one of those folks that think that the restrictions to fouling were too great. Personally I LOVE the Smeborg proposal for changing fouling which was as follows:

Possibility to add some punch back to fouling (which got hammered in BB2k1) consider the following: add back that Mighty Blow, Claw, and Razor Sharp Fangs can be used and change the ejection base to the following: Fouling with Dirty Player gives NO bonus to armour or injury anymore but is always a 6+ for the Referee roll (even under the eye), normal fouling is a 5+ ref roll base, fouling with any av/inj mods like MB, Claw, or RSF (even if you have Dirty Player) is a 4+ ref roll base. If you want to leave the IGEMOY system in the game have it add +1 to the referee roll for anything but a Dirty Player foul w/o av/inj mod skills. The other kicker to consider is to allow Dirty Player to be able to assist a foul even in an opponent TZ (ie make Dirty Player the flip side of the Guard skill on blocking). Several leagues have used this system for years. These changes and still not allowing SPPs for fouling would give fouling a little more punch without a ton of rules clutter or the return of the Dirty Player being the player on the team with the most SPPs.

I'm currently actively supporting this for a good way to change fouling to where its a part of the game again ... other than the Pixie team I haven't seen virtually any boots in the MBBL2 or the MBBL. I agree with a little choking back of fouling rules from 3rd but they seem to have been wiped out.

Galak

[Dangerous Dave]

First up are there other rolls which are worthless or at least not very good?


Inspiration - OK you can pick a player but its not the best of rolls

Greased Shoes - OK but unless the opposition only have 1 ball handler will anyone be jumping up and down if they get this?

Bribe the Announcers - worse than Inspiration (however now changed under the new table so is now OK)

Palmed Coin - aside from Grudge match its the worst pick - especially since in PBEM your decision is already made for you - weather conditions / your opponents may have changed your mind.

Weather Magic - this may have some effect in MBBL2 - however, most of the time it will not. Also since most of the choices may depend on whether you receive or kick, this is often a "no effect roll"

Team Anthem - +1 to FF - yes it may get you pitch invasion....... but most of the time this will be a nil roll - the change (permanent) makes it OK - although still weak.

That Babes got talent - OK since Cheerleaders can impact the game slightly more in MBBL2, this is marginally better than under vanilla BB2k1 - however not the best of rolls - the change to permanent (1 Cheerleader and 1 AC is fine).


My point is that Grudge match is not the only nil roll. IMO Palmed Coin is as bad and possibly worse. In addition, if you do Get the Ref with the old Gudge Match, it has some benefit.


So if you had 1 Handicap roll - which of the following (under official BB2k1) would you prefer to receive?


Under Scrutiny
Palmed Coin
Weather Magic


Personally, unless I was playing with or against a team that had a weather effect (eg Lizards or Norse), I would prefer to have Under Scrutiny. The no fouling means that I can Pile On / Diving Tackle whenever I want, I know that he can't foul me so even if I only foul twice I have an advantage. And if he has a player with a Chainsaw or a Poisoned Dagger etc then one of the rolls which is towards the bottom of the pack just became a great roll.


OK how to change the rolls?


Well, personally I would leave Under Scrutiny. Grudge Match - make it 2 DPs, one team may foul as many times a turn as they want and the eye doesn't move at all for either side (after all it is a Grudge Match). For Biased Referee, I am happy with the change - although this makes it automatically worse than Under Scrutiny. So if you want to add a kicker here, why not say that each Dirty Player in the opposing team has a 50% chance of being sent off at the start of the game.


In terms of fouling, my view is that the current rules are fine.. the only possible change would be to add an extra ability to Dirty Players so that they may assist in TZs.


Dave

PS I like the change to Sponsorship Deal and News Feature - getting the cash before the game is a Handicap to the team with the higher TR whereas receiving cash post game is not.

[sean newboy]

Inspiration - OK you can pick a player but its not the best of rolls

Both of my current teams and almost all of my previous teams would have loved this, they did love the card. Getting that skill at the start of the game is Awesome, especially on someone who can use it, sorry but when my 35 spp gets an mvp i actually feel robbed when i could have gotten a first roll on my rookie who had one casualty and has ag 1 or 2 (saurus, bob, etc)

Greased Shoes - OK but unless the opposition only have 1 ball handler will anyone be jumping up and down if they get this?

If the roll is changed to be so that it happens after setup for a drive its not bad, at the beginning of a turn would be best.

Bribe the Announcers - worse than Inspiration (however now changed under the new table so is now OK)

Alrite this one is random, so its not much, prolly wont help during the game. I agree.

Palmed Coin - aside from Grudge match its the worst pick - especially since in PBEM your decision is already made for you - weather conditions / your opponents may have changed your mind.

I absolutely agree, the truth is i like to win the toss, but its never been a big deal, even if it helped in ot still would not be a big deal card.

Weather Magic - this may have some effect in MBBL2 - however, most of the time it will not. Also since most of the choices may depend on whether you receive or kick, this is often a "no effect roll"

Absofrigginlutely, this only really helps some teams against some opponents some of the time.

The other two i agree with as well. +1ff is not a big deal, even if it helped with the gate. That babes, well i dont know what they were thinking, unless they are going to add special rules for cheerleaders in the future. One roll on the kickoff chart uses cheerleaders, so u have 2-7 chances to even hit it, 7 being a rare occasion. Personally since fouling has been so weakened i think they may as well bring back spp's for it. In 5 games this season i would have gotten a total of 2 spp's, even with dirty player or some such (if the others were allowed again), that total would merely have been 4 spp's. [/quote]

[Deathwing]

Well, my game against the Gnomes is over.
Dunno if I did this right, but I ended up clearing the pitch, so I moved his turn marker, moved mine again and used a RO to score the winner. Never come across that situation before.

Post game I rolled an Agility increase for the other RO, which I reluctantly turned down for Block. Could have been a lot of fun though!
Double for the Thrower, took the obvious Strong Arm and another double for a lineman. (Dodge). So still no mutations!

[martynq]

I was considering fouling with the ghouls - I had worked out that the one safe place for a player was sent off, since no further damage could be done. As it was, I tried fouling out one of the DPs in the last turn of the first half with my most expendable player. Of course the result was stunned, while the skeleton was sent off. Failed to argue the toss with the ref also. (Does that ever work??)

Why knows what'll happen in the second half? If I equalize, then I expect further applications of the boot. It is tempting just to try to keep my players protected and let McDeth score a few more to the point where he doesn't think of my team as a threat.

Nice to note that my Division A team has drawn another nice choice of team. So far in two seasons my high elves have faced the following opposition:
Humans, Slann Elves (so far so good ), Chaos, Treefolk, Khemri, Chaos Dwarf, Halloweenies, and now more Khemri.

Martyn

[sean newboy]

Had an idea about the "Grudge Match" thing, how about rewording it so it alllows all fouls in a turn to be under the same eye conditions. Then u at least get 2 good foul turns a game. Alternately the eye rules could be changed to say that the eye doesnt go on till the end of that players turn, the turn they foul, which would be the same thing since grudge match is the only way to foul more than once a turn. Deathwing i take it u gave up ag 4 on rat ogre, thats gotta suck, giving up dodging and even throwing/catching for measly old block. Personally i would have given him big hand, thats one real way to annoy your enemy.

[Deathwing]

Well. the Rat Ogres have cost me plenty of WA turnovers, and I intend going the safe and boring Block then Pro route. AG4 would have been fun, but of limited use when coupled with WA. No option of Big Hand with a 5 and a 6!