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 Post subject: Is throw teammate really this powerful?
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Hi,

I've been playing BloodBowl against my son and he loves his Orc/Goblin/Troll team. The part he really enjoys is throwing his goblins to score touchdowns...but this seems to work a lot more than I think it should - am I missing something??

If I'm kicking off he sets up as follows:

He puts a couple of goblins next to his troll and fronts them with a number of other team mates. This is usually enough
to stop the troll having to throw when next to my players.

He puts the rest of the players so he's covered the kick off area. If he's unlucky his first turn is getting the ball. If he's lucky he can get it to his goblin with a hand off. If he's really lucky (last game) he gets a touchback and the goblin gets given the ball.

Either way within a turn or two his goblin has the ball and he's ready to throw him.

Assuming I've not broken through the massed ranks of orcs (which is usual) the following then happens:

- He rolls to see if the troll moves (1 in 6 chance of failure)
- He rolls to see if the goblin gets eaten (1 in 6 change of failure)
- He rolls for the throw (2 in 6 chance of failure) - the troll is usually clear of opponents
- He rolls for the landing (1 in 2 chance of failure) - he usually ends up in clear space
- He then runs in a touchdown (sometimes needs to go for it - depends on the scatter)

I admit that, written like that, there are a number of chances for it to go wrong but, with a re-roll on the landing and no chance of an intercept it does seem like a pretty good way of moving a player ~16 squares down the pitch, 7/8 of which can ignore tackle zones as it flies gracefully over their cowering heads!

Have I missed anything?

Thanks

Gareth


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 Post subject: Re: Is throw teammate really this powerful?
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:53 am 
Godfather of Blood Bowl
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The biggest part I see missing is that a good player against Goblins would have a defense set up that would require the Goblin to dodge 3 times in order to score after landing.

But even without that ... probably works by multiplying the chance for success (and you needed to add the handoff roll of 2/3rd into the mix. (2/3)*(5/6)*(5/6)*(2/3)*(1/2)= a little under a 15.5% chance of success. Add one GFI and its under 12.9%.

However ... add in 3 dodge rolls for a good defense and you are down to under 4% to work.

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 Post subject: Re: Is throw teammate really this powerful?
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:06 am 
Da Spammer
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TTM can only go 6 squares forward, so even if the Troll is on the LOS the Goblin will need 1 GFO most of the time, and will often scatter away from the endzone, meaning he'll need 2 GFI, or not even be able to reach.

(There used to be a webpage that worked out scatter probabilities but that's long gone, and I'm not going to try. ;) )

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 Post subject: Re: Is throw teammate really this powerful?
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:40 am 
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6 squares? If I put the troll on the LOS and measure I get 7 squares (throwing straight) - which gives a direct run in (assuming scatter doesn't go backwards) without GFI.

He's not playing goblins, he's playing Orcs but has included a troll and four goblins. If I was to put a large number of players back he'd crush the front line and just cage across the line. Plus gobbos dodge really easily...

When the odds are worked out it doesn't seem like a good play...I guess he's just been really lucky with it.

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Is throw teammate really this powerful?
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:29 am 
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Short pass is 6 squares forward and 3 to either side, has been since 95.
Are you measuring from the middle of the thrower's square, and if the line between short/long bisects then you take the longer range.

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 Post subject: Re: Is throw teammate really this powerful?
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:48 am 
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I think so. I took the picture this morning with the range ruler on the board?


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 Post subject: Re: Is throw teammate really this powerful?
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:54 am 
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Yep, and the line between Short and Long is in the 7th square, so that means that's a Long pass and not allowed under TTM.

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 Post subject: Re: Is throw teammate really this powerful?
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:08 am 
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It's only just (millimetres) in the seventh square, I assumed I'd just not lined it up with the centre. Did it used to be clearer with the older rulers?

Does that also mean that, if the end of the long bomb is just (mm) inside the 14th square you can only throw 13 squares? (I mean throwing the ball, not the goblin...thought that would cool!)


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 Post subject: Re: Is throw teammate really this powerful?
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:14 am 
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This NAF page may be off help to you --> https://www.thenaf.net/blood-bowl/rules/clarifications/

Especially the graphic of throwing ranges in squares (attached here as well)
Attachment:
throwing-274x300.jpg

and the section on TTM (quoted below).

Quote:
Throw Team-Mate (TTM)

This is a combination of the skills “Throw Team-Mate” and “Right Stuff”. The process for throwing a Team-Mate is as follows:

- Declare the Pass action. Note that you cannot Pass the ball and TTM in the same turn, and if you fail Bonehead/Really Stupid you lose your pass action.
- Roll Bonehead/RS/Take Root.
- Move next to a player with Right Stuff
- Declare where you will throw to. This can be 6 squares forward and 3 to the side for a Short Pass. You may throw directly at a player.
- Roll for Always Hungry if using a Troll.
- Roll not to Fumble. For a quick pass or short pass with strong arm/accurate this is 2+, for a short pass it is 3+. Disturbing presence, very sunny and tackle zones make these rolls harder.
- If you Fumble, roll to land.
- If you do not Fumble, scatter the landing square 3 times. TTM cannot be accurate.
- If you land in an empty square, make a landing roll.
- If you land on a player, that player is Knocked Down, and the thrown player is scattered once and then Place Prone and must roll for armour/injury, but this is not a turnover unless the player that was landed on was on your own side (or the thrown player was holding the ball)!

- NB Agility is not mentioned at all in the above! It is irrelevant to Throwing a Team Mate, unless you are the player being thrown, of course…


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 Post subject: Re: Is throw teammate really this powerful?
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:53 am 
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Lunch beat me to it (had to fire up the PC).

garethadams wrote:
It's only just (millimetres) in the seventh square, I assumed I'd just not lined it up with the centre. Did it used to be clearer with the older rulers?

I've only played on a new board with the new ruler a couple of times, but yes, I found the old ruler easier to use. Though I use the grid LM linked to above and only use the rulers for uncertain intercept chances now.

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 Post subject: Re: Is throw teammate really this powerful?
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:22 pm 
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I agree the old ruler was easier to use. And yes what they are all saying is accurate on where Long Pass and Long Bomb happen. Meaning .. yes ... even 1 mm into the square for the next range is the next range.

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 Post subject: Re: Is throw teammate really this powerful?
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:41 am 
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Also, you got the landing wrong. A normal Gobbo lands on a 4+ so fails 3 out of 6 times.

Playing Ogres last season and Halflings this season I can assure you that TTM really is not powerful. At least not with my dice. Maybe you care for a swap of dice? I get your sons abd he gets mine ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Is throw teammate really this powerful?
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:52 am 
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Err... 3 in 6 is the same as 1 in 2.

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 Post subject: Re: Is throw teammate really this powerful?
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Apparently I cannot read. My mind just assumed a 6 instead of a 2 because the 6 was always used before... Guess I didn't pass MY Really Stupid roll.

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 Post subject: Re: Is throw teammate really this powerful?
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:43 pm 
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Seems I jinxed his dice by posting this. In the last game his troll fumbled twice, tried to eat his goblin and, when he actually managed to land a goblin with the ball successfully, his goblin failed a gfi and broke his hip...


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