Balanced?

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Wed Jul 24, 2002 8:23 pm

Why not using the 2nd Ed rules?
there were good.
extra rule: Thadrin win whatever position he stands.

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 7:20 am

Can you explain it for people who don't have the 2nd ed advanced rulebook

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 9:03 am

I genuinely think the discussion in this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=1397&start=15

is also a good tourney format..

My concern with Marcus 16 points for a win, 7 for a loss system is that it doesnt make a lot of sense. I'm not suggesting it doesn't work, far from it, but to my mind it is slightly awkward compared to a 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw, 0 for a loss system.. At least this mirrors most professional football leagues and is something we are all familiar with..

At T4, Lucy and I wanted a system which represented results and effort, and going into the final game there were 4 players within 5 points of each other. I think we succeeded in our aim. I think the format I suggest in the other topic would also represent the same nail-biting finish!

As far as I am concerned, the right coach won T4, despite losing his first game, Marcus performance was generally excellent (and would have been even better but for a silly misake v Lucy).. Thads, with all respect mate, any system which has you beating Marcus is flawed. Your results were steady and you deserved a top 3 finish, but your team did not merit winning in my opinion. You were content to win 2-1 while Marcus destroyed his opponents where possible! No offence intended, but I think the best 3 teams finished in about the right place, so I think the format worked well...

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 11:44 am

The idea behind the points for a win is to balance out the bonus points so that a really solid draw - coupled with a total whitewash is worth the same amount of points as 2 mediocre wins.

eg: two wins at 2-1 with no casualties are worth 2*16=32 points
a 4-0 win with 2 casualties and a 1-1 draw with 2 casualties are worth 12+20=32 points.

The point here being that 2 wins will never be beaten by a draw and a win, but it can be worth the same number of points, at best.

IIRC there are similar balancing factors that allow for a little leeway for a coach that plays a blinder but gets utterly nuffle-raped for one game. By the same token it doesn't allow any one lucky game to tip the scales overwhelmingly.

Marcus

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 5:14 pm

I think I may have needed a few more

s or

s.

Marcus beat me, and I am in no way or form complaining about the result, especially when I was lucky to catch Woody on a bad dice day, and only beat niels because one roll botched at the right moment. I'm well chuffed with second!

I think the system we used actually worked very well. My only change would be to use 2 points for every TD of Wining Margin instead of 2 points for every TD, so winning defensive play would be rewarded (4-2 and 2-0 being equal worth) OR issue a "Shutout bounty"....2 points for a shutout?
Marcus' system sounds interesting but my fears are the same - its a bit much to get your head round.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 5:44 pm

I'll run the results through those spreadsheets I knocked up post Res; plus the WPS format and the Orion format; and we'll see what gets thrown up. I liked the closeness at the top going into the last round, admirable considering that keeping regular opponents apart pretty much scotched the notion of Swiss-style. I'll get something posted tomorrow, I'm still catching up with stuff right now.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 7:08 pm

Been looking through the posts on this. Got a few ideas in mind and might post up a new thread on it in a bit.

I'm a big fan of the "score for win and draw + bonus points" format as it ensures that no-one sneaks through the back door with a couple of lucky scorlines (I dunno, like if they get a pitch invasion or something. *cough*) but also leaves room to differentiate each player based on whether they performed adequately, well, or above and beyond.

There are a few factors that I think deserve consideration:

Points for an outstanding draw should be equal to, or at least close to, a mediocre win. This encourages and rewards exciting and active play which is more fun for everyone in a tournament situation.
No one style of play should be favoured so bonus points should be spread across a range of different winning styles. The side benefit of this is that to score the maximum points for a game you really have to all-round thrash your opponent.

Examples from that WPS scoring scheme I keep banging on about (example only, your milage may vary)

Bonus for TD difference - Rewards strong defensive play and discourages clock-watching playing styles. Also, as Thadrin said, it cuts down on game fixing whereby players play basketball for the first half, scoring 2 quick TDs each. Whether you score 1 point per TD difference or cap it to a certain number of points depends on how you want to structure your scoring.

Bonus for Casualties - Cas difference could be a little overkill as hitting teams generally have higher armour so it skews the field against Woodies, Skaven etc (and wouldn't you want to reward a Woodie team that did a little damage?). Capping this seems sensible as it would matches from turning into complete punchups. 1 point for 2 or more would be reasonable - tweaked to fit in with the rest of your scoring.

Bonus for a Clean Sheet - This would reward players who went the extra yards to stop the opposition scoring. For teams like Dwarves this rewards their standard style of play*. For a team like Skaven who let teams score against them and simply play to outscore the opponent, it rewards playing above and beyond the gameplan.

With the above examples, a Woodelf team who runs away with a 3-1 win would score as much as a Dwarf team who scored 1-0 and picked up a couple of casualties. Both would outscore a Human team who picked up 1 casualty and scraped in a last turn 2-1 victory but would be beaten outright by a 4-0 Skaven whitewash with 2 casualties.

None of these players should progress to the next round with any fewer points than a player who drew their match, and there should not be a significant points gap between the high-scoring drawers and the marginal winners.

Thoughts?

Marcus

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 11:03 pm

My own opinion, is that getting point on TD and Cas is quite better for strongest teams.
Cos a strong team that make 4 cas but loose 1/0 can have also 8 pts...(damn, they are loosers

)
My proposal from 2nd ed is:
10 pts for victory
5 pts for draw
0 for a loss
+5 for clean sheet
+1 for every TD scored
+1 for every cas done

that's all folks...
thought too?

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 8:04 am

+5 for a clean sheet is a bit excessive IMO. Could encourage ball-holding plays. Also does not favour low armour teams who rely on scoring quickly and minimising their exposure to blocks.

I'm also of the opinion that scoring points per casualty isn't the best measure. Firstly it could encourage the aforementioned scalp-hunting game. Secondly, casualties are at the whim of the dice, tournament points based heavily on how luck you get rolling 10+ doesn't appeal to me.

I remain in favour of capping points for casualties.

Marcus