PBEM Tournament

tchatter · Post by **tchatter** » Fri May 30, 2003 12:10 pm

Thanks Deathwing... and I did some thinking last night on my drive home... "was that a red light? Oh well... too late now..."

Ok... this is going to be way off the wall, BUT why couldn't GW/Fanatic use the same online model that is working so well for M:TG?? GW would have to create an online/pbem PC game, which shouldn't be too difficult if they were to contact Ron/Tom/Skijunkie and invest in slamming the two programs together. Once you have a game that can be played online or pbem, with all dice rolls coming from a server in England or the US then the fun begins.

You buy the PC game for say $60US, with that you get a code to purchase a virtual set of minis, which are kept in an online 'miniatures box'. With this set of minis you can then play BB. Each mini would have its own unique code, and you can purchase any mini that GW produces for Blood Bowl. Just like MTG has virtual cards. And just like MTG, if you decide you want the minis for real, you have them send you the minis, but then you don't have them online anymore.

This way GW is tapping into the online community, AND selling minis...

Ok, anyways back on topic... what would stop me from running a PBEM tournament and keeping track of rankings that mimic the NAF?? Other then the fact that I don't want to piss off the NAF. Couldn't I just run a PBEM tournament that happens at the same times as the real tournaments, or the week before/after? Then post the standings for all to see?

Believe me I don't want to piss anyone off, but I think that something like this is doable and there is a need for it, at least a want. Even if it just boils down to bragging rights...and a ranking posted for the world to see.

Ok time to actually work...

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri May 30, 2003 1:11 pm

tchatter wrote:Thanks Deathwing... and I did some thinking last night on my drive home... "was that a red light? Oh well... too late now..."

Ok... this is going to be way off the wall, BUT why couldn't GW/Fanatic use the same online model that is working so well for M:TG?? GW would have to create an online/pbem PC game, which shouldn't be too difficult if they were to contact Ron/Tom/Skijunkie and invest in slamming the two programs together. Once you have a game that can be played online or pbem, with all dice rolls coming from a server in England or the US then the fun begins.

You buy the PC game for say $60US, with that you get a code to purchase a virtual set of minis, which are kept in an online 'miniatures box'. With this set of minis you can then play BB. Each mini would have its own unique code, and you can purchase any mini that GW produces for Blood Bowl. Just like MTG has virtual cards. And just like MTG, if you decide you want the minis for real, you have them send you the minis, but then you don't have them online anymore.
This way GW is tapping into the online community, AND selling minis...

This is getting into the realms of Toby's online vision. I know nothing about MTG online, but personally I'd hate to see BB go the way of MTG with Pro Tours, qualifying tournaments, prize money etc. I guess it's down to GW's board to decide policy, but I really would be surprised to see any kind of a shift towards the online PC market at the expense of the minatures/hobby gaming side of things. Whether it would actually hurt or harm minature sales is open to debate, but there's no doubt such a move would require massive investment and expansion. Do GW need to?
Well, I guess we could discuss the pros and cons until the cows come home, but to what purpose?

Ok, anyways back on topic... what would stop me from running a PBEM tournament and keeping track of rankings that mimic the NAF?? Other then the fact that I don't want to piss off the NAF. Couldn't I just run a PBEM tournament that happens at the same times as the real tournaments, or the week before/after? Then post the standings for all to see?

Believe me I don't want to piss anyone off, but I think that something like this is doable and there is a need for it, at least a want. Even if it just boils down to bragging rights...and a ranking posted for the world to see.

Ok time to actually work...

FUMBBL uses a very close variant of the NAF ranking formula, so what you're suggesting is in fact almost in existence, with the exception that it's based on league structure rather than tournament rosters. Coach rankings are here:
http://fumbbl.com/league.php?division=A ... onference=

So if you're suggesting running a Pbem based coach ranking ladder using something similar to the NAF formula, using a series of individual tournaments rather than leagues, then I guess there's nothing stopping you at present. Whether it'd have any more kudos or importance than anything already out there is open to debate though.
Online players tend to either use Java or Pbem, (rarely both IME) and of the regular (and quality) tournament players there are plenty who don't play online at all. So what we're talking about here (to a certain extent) is jousting at windmills.

tchatter · Post by **tchatter** » Fri May 30, 2003 4:43 pm

Yes, to an extent we are.

But I am an unactive part of the NAF... now (hypthetically speaking) if there was a PBEM/JAVA tournament, and it was guaranteed to be cheat free (remember hypothetical) wouldn't the results be just as viable as if we had played face to face?

Also you say that there are regular (and quality) tournament players... that don't play online at all. Well, it would also hold true that there are regular (quality) players who only play online. Now if the NAF rankings are meant to show who is 'better' and give a ranking to each coach with each race. Then aren't we missing a whole chunk of coaches? Is the number 1 NAF coach right now, really number 1?? Who's to say I couldn't beat him/her? But which gets to the point of this thread (I think) I will probably only play in a tournament once every 2 years, MAYBE. But I play online, every single day.

I guess it just seems to me that if the online medium could be as cheat free as possible then why couldn't it be NAF sanctioned?

Also back to an earlier comment I made... when I review game files I see many rules that are handled wrong (of the few that aren't automated). Now, to me this seems impossible in PBEM... why? You have an ability to watch, step by step your opponents turn and then bring up any problems to him. Now if these infractions aren't being caught by either coach...which is the case in the files I review, then isn't it possible that this also happens face to face? So even though I said you could cheat at face to face, it depends on what you call cheating? So, most of the reloads and rollbacks in PBEM occur due to rule disputes, and not truly cheating. My Point I think that at this moment, Java/PBEM could easily have an 'official' tournament without too much fear of it being illegitamate.

Ok... enough rambling...

Maybe someday I will actually show up with a rank on the NAF site, but not this year. Will I renew my membership? Dunno.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri May 30, 2003 6:32 pm

I'm not sure that the NAF rankings will or (were ever) intended to find the best player in the world, period.
As Al (? I think) mentioned earlier, playing online is a whole different ballgame. Pbem? Pressure cooker situation in an important game? Go away, come back with a coffee, sit down, study it, weigh the odds...
Is that cheating?
I just don't believe that online results are as viable as face to face tourney results, sorry. There's a world of difference between a tourney situation with a crowd of people looking on and sitting in your own home in your own chair with all your creature comforts around you. There's body language, there's all kinds of other factors. This is a bit extreme, but it's a bit like saying that kids damn good at playing 1st person shooters online would be damn good at in real life. Bad analogy admittedly, but I hope you kinda see my point. I love my online BB, and I run teams in 5 different leagues, but it simply isn't the same.

I guess that sounds a bit condescending, it really isn't intended to be. I have no idea whether or not the NAF will be able to rank online games in future, and I'm certainly not opposed to it per se (although personally I'd rather the results were kept separate).

As for 'unactive', although the tournament scene is mushrooming with the advent of the NAF, the NAF raison d'etre wasn't solely to be a tournament body. The ranking system was a part of NAF, an added bonus of membership, not the whole point of it. That said, I'm fully aware that those who attend tournies on a regular basis are getting more out of it than those who are a little more..er..isolated. I'm not sure what the NAF are able to do about people's location or circumstance though.

On that point, half of all NAF coaches are in the US. All these tournies over here in Europe aren't just happening, people are working very hard to create them and people are either flying or driving large distances to attend them. So while I'm getting more out of the NAF than others, I'm putting more in too (i.e. most of my disposable income). This year (so far) I've been to 3 NAF ranked tournies. Just the BB was in the UK and that's well over 200 miles from here (and 3 nights in a hotel..not cheap), the others have been in Holland and France and involved major expense (in my terms anyway). The next NAF ranked event I'm hoping to do is in Germany. If I can afford it.

What's my point? I really don't know.

.the sun's beaming down and I've been drinking since lunchtime...

Wih no offence intended to anybody, I seem to hear a good deal of 'there's no tournaments around me..what do I get out of NAF?' from over the pond..whereas we're just getting on with it over here and it's mushrooming as a result.
Galak's working hard at GenCon, BlanchPrez is organizing something..I really hope that GenCon and the Chaos Cup kick things off over there so there's more events for you guys to attend (and closer!), but it's not as if everything is on our doorstep over here...

Ah..I've been typing for what seems like hours..drunk a fair bit..ignore any gibberish, anything offensive was unintended...
Goddamn yanks!

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri May 30, 2003 7:13 pm

Actually DW ... I agree ... I drove 250 miles to play in the Underground Bowl and if the Chaos Cup was not one week after GenCon I'd be driving to it also ... given that I've dropped about $200 in on the GenCon tournament for prizes and trophies my wife thought another $125 for the Chaos Cup was a little much one week later.

The tournaments are there, its just if you are willing to pay to go to them, or willing to try and have one yourself. That's why I wanted to have the tournament at GenCon (and move the Chaos Cup there which is not going to happen I've been told) because sooooo many gamers are paying for that trip anyway that it reduces the expense and allows for a bigger audience.

However I understand students like DL not having the cash. I haven't heard other than cyberhare if anyone I met at the Underground Bowl is coming to the GenCon tournament, so maybe its a willing to part with the cash that is different here than over the pond. Don't know.

But since less than 30 Chaos Cup tickets have sold in about 2 weeks when the Blood Bowl sold 200 in 5 hours, I think you can see a pretty obvious difference.

Anyway .... last point ... a seperate ranking ... fine ... don't really want them mixed in with the tabletop scores. And like you, DW, I'm a big fan of online play.

Galak

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Fri May 30, 2003 8:18 pm

I think the biggest difference between the US coaches and the UK coaches is that you have affordable means of travelling 200 miles in Europe. We just don't have that here. IN the US you are pretty much limited to planes, busses or automobiles. Planes are pricey, busses are a nightmare and only a fool would load up his BB collection and board a greyhound, and that pretty much leaves cars which is time consuming. The other thing I think you are missing is that your biggest trip was 200 miles! That's a hop skip and a jump over here. Galak and Gen Con are over 500 miles from me and god know how far Toronto or San Diego are. More than 12 hours driving time I can garauntee that! Also you aren't paying attention to the price difference.
How much did admission to "rendez view" cost? Did you have to pay $50 to get in and then another $40 to play? I doubt it.
Yes, we can run local tournies all we want but I seriously doubt we will see a bigger turn out than we ever have because GW doesn't bother to sell Blood Bowl in America!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you know how hard it is for people in my area to get Blood Bowl stuff? The local shop hasn't carried it for years! They won't deal with any of Fanatic's products because it's a pain for them so there is practically no interest in it here. Which means I would have to rely on outsiders to come to the Quad Cities and I already looked into that. Not enough people would come...maybe if I ran it in my back yard!

For me to rent a hall and sit around and hope that enough people show up so I don't lose my ass is insane. But I guess it's just because we aren't committed to the game like the Euros are.

Gimme a break. Sure there are 5 or 10 American fanatics, like Galak, who live and die for Blood Bowl but does that mean the rest of us with lives should be excluded?

You said that the NAF rankings aren't the sole purpose of the organization. Well, what is? All I see on the site is info about tournaments and info about rankings.
I don't see anything else.

At any rate, I think I can just count the NAF out of it anyway.
Maybe my summer project will be to put together some prizes and run an invitational PBeM tournament. I don't need the NAF for that.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri May 30, 2003 10:18 pm

Hmm....dunno about affordable...I'm sure those from the US who came to the BB could tell you about our 'affordable' trains...
To get from here to Nottingham and back would cost me around $85, to get up to The Bearded Snot last weekend would have cost me over $110 on our shambolic excuse for a railway.
I did a quick conversion of petrol (gas) prices. Over here the cheapest you can get unleaded for is around 73p per litre. That works out somewhere around the equivalent of around $4.75 per US gallon. Dunno what you guys pay, but I figure it's somewhere less than that. It's not cheap getting around over here, certainly not by public transport. Price difference? Tell me about it.
And mileage is pretty much irrelevent, you can sit on the road for an hour over here and get 20 miles. (And I didn't say 200 miles is the furthest, I said over 200+miles from me to the BB at Nottingham. The other NAF tournies I've attended this year have involved airports, passports, customs, travel to and from the airport each end..time consuming? yeah, kinda..)
As for price of tournies themselves, it's obviously gonna be more if you run them through (within) cons who are gonna take their cut. Ahh, dunno why I bother, didn't we do this after the Dutch Open?

I'm on your side, I really do want to see more tournies over there, more accessible to more NAF members. Why not more independent (of Cons) Tournies? Pure demographics?
As for hard to get, one of the French guys I played at R-v told me he drove 3hrs to get the last French copy of BB he could find. There's no teams/blisters etc in the stores over there at all, more or less everything has to be mail ordered because what little stock they do get disappears fast.
I'm really not chewing on anyone's ass here, I'm simply trying to get across that we don't have a load of cheap easily accessible tournies here.
We have tournies because people are prepared to put in the effort to organise them, and they work because people are prepared to travel (and pay) to support and attend them.

Dark Lord (retired) · Fri May 30, 2003 10:31 pm

bah...you just don't get it.
Use mail order? Oh why didn't I think of that?

Like I said, I would gladly organize one but not for 5 people.
And y0ou don't have alot of cheap easily accessable tournies? I think it's all relative, my man.

I say, again, I just don't think you understand how big this continent is.

It would be like me telling you that you have plenty tournaments that you can attend...if you were just willing to put forth the effort to go to Egypt.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri May 30, 2003 10:43 pm

Dark Lord wrote: I say, again, I just don't think you understand how big this continent is.

It would be like me telling you that you have plenty tournaments that you can attend...if you were just willing to put forth the effort to go to Egypt.

But I'm not saying you have plenty, I wish you had more!

Yeah, I may not know how big your continent is

, but I've got half an idea of how many people live within 200m of say New York...or how many are out in LA/San Diego....

I just can't believe how slowly the CCup tickets are going for Chicago...and I know for a fact that 2 of them have been sold to Spanish guys travelling over from Barcelona.

I dunno, it's just strange that the scene isn't thriving more over there...
It's certainly not because we've got all the breaks over here that you haven't...hell, we've got to play guys that don't even speak the same language!

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri May 30, 2003 10:57 pm

Hahaha..just had to nick this from the GW site....
"I went to the BB tournament at the Orion gamin convention a few months ago. You go to a tournament and you are looking forward to it. You've spent time painting and converting and its time to reap the rewards. Then you step into the room and the smell of Nurgle's rot fills your nostrils and your stomach turns inside out. The smell of the unwashed minority of blood bowl players. The Toronto tourney was exceptionally bad. I'm not sure if its because they haven't grasped the basics of hygiene yet, they don't wash properly, or they have forsaken the pleasures of deodorant and instead spent the money earmarked for that purpose on that new pack of Ogres. You know who I'm talking about. Everyone knows at least one. They seem oblivious to our discomfort. Maybe they do it on purpose to give them a psychological advantage? We would like to implore you (you know who you are, hopefully) to BUY and WEAR some Deodorant. Its a basic human right of your fellow players to not have to gag through a game or to hold their noses through a match. Thank you for your time. "

See what you're missing?..
I'm still chuckling at that....where's Ant?

Dark Lord (retired) · Fri May 30, 2003 11:05 pm

It's precisely because you have the breaks that we don't.

GWUS mail order sucks and has no clue about Blood Bowl stuff.
We can't get magazine subscriptions.
It's almost as impossible to get minis.

...and the reason you'll find so few attending CCup is because, like I said, it's a huge journey for most people.
You bring up LA or NY as if those people are going to fly to Chicago and play in it. lol It would be about as expensive for them as it would be for you.
As for me and my area...well I live in a state that is about the same size as your country but our population is about 2.8 million people at 52 per square mile while yours is around 50 million at 376 per square mile.

Does this make sense now? I don't just walk to the local pub for a beer when i feel like it. I have drive 20 miles and cross 2 bridges.
I don't just get up and go to the game shop or stop my friend's house for a game. It has to be a weekend thing because the shop is in another city across state lines about 45 miles away.
There is nothing around my house right now but other houses and corn.

Does that help?

and oh yeah, I live in the second largest city in Iowa,

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri May 30, 2003 11:35 pm

You're totally missing my point.
For a start from all reports I've heard lately GWUS MO is head and shoulders above GWUK MO, to the extent where people in Europe with rather order from the US.
And I wasn't suggesting that people travel from NY or LA to Chicago, I was suggesting that there (at least) are two areas of relatively dense population that could easily support large scale tournies but aren't as yet. I'm genuinely puzzled as to why? I can't accept it's because BB gear is difficult to get hold of.
And the fact that you live in the middle of nowhere is irrelevent, it's not about you, it's about the guys that don't live in the middle of nowhere.
What the hell has the distance you have to drive to your local pub got to do with me wondering why there isn't a tourney in (for example) the New York area?
I really think it's an attitude thing, and I'm not saying it's wrong, just different.

Slinky78 · Post by **Slinky78** » Fri May 30, 2003 11:38 pm

Was merely going to put my small opinion forward that I don't personally think pbem and tabletop scores/events/rankings should be mixed - but seem to be entering a large debate.
Just to add to the confusion I think everyone is making some valid comments. It's a shame tournaments are seemingly not so easy to get to in the US, and a pbem tournament would probably be fun; but there are a load of pbem leagues and this in essence a tabletop game. I don't know a huge amount about the pbem software, but I doubt it's impermeable to malpractice, and as deathwing pointed out it's not the same as being in a 'real' tournament environment. I joined the naf to play bloodbowl - with little metal men, plastic dice etc. I joined microsoft zone to play age of empires, because that's a more suitable place for a computer game. I'll leave the finer points to those who run such things, but I for one would be fairly unhappy were pbem results ever incorporated into 'normal' Naf rankings. Not because I want to protect 'my precious ranking' because it's not exactly impressive, but because bloodbowl - is bloodbowl, pbem is a nice side-show/tool/luxury/alternate form of play/practice ground/chance for playing people you couldn't otherwise on some form of social level.
Plus all the legal stuff mentioned previously makes an naf pbem tourney something of a moot point I feel. If gw were a software company, then maybe, but their core is minis, and I don't see them feeling the need to diversify to please a few bloodbowl players - especially as it's not even a mainline product anymore.
Just to chip in on the travel/cost/attendance thing as well. We are quite lucky with the geographical situation over here, there are a few 'clumped' countries. But I'd hardly say it's cheap. I can't possibly go to all the tournaments popping up. I couldn't afford it, I couldn't keep having the odd day off to extend a weekend travelling about, my girlfriend certainly wouldn't be happy, it would screw up my weekly sporting commitments etc etc. Deathwing's made it to 2 or 3 this year, but that's a personal commitment of time and money on his part. Yes you're continent's big - well done. Our little backwater doesn't compare, but you still have to spend time and money to get about (particularly in the Uk..and let's not mention trains). I'm delighted so much stuff is happening in this part of the world right now and it's a shame it's not the same for everyone, but that's life I'm afraid. Would you like someone to round up people in a 50 mile radius of your house at gunpoint and make them play bloodbowl?
I used to live in Oman; much bloodbowl out there? No, most people don't even know where it is. I had my board and got a small group playing. There were 3 opponents in the whole country - at least you have potential. You may have a big country, but you also have a lot of people, and I believe a first world transport system. I met two guys from texas at the bloodbowl, I was amazed someone would travel that far, but they'd done it, enjoyed the experience (I think) and that's there choice. Would I do it? No. Am I extemely upset that because the Chaos cup is in the US I can't go? No. It's one of those things. To me it's a game, not worth flying that far for, and forking out that much cash. But likewise it's not the be all and end all. Everyone has their priorities, and it's a shame when it's not easy to do something you enjoy, and I really do sympathise with you, but you seem more intent on changing the geography of europe than working around your problem.
If there's a problem with US tourneys stir up the us coaches, find out what's going on, try and sort something out that's favourable to you all.
Maybe you'll need to do a non-Naf pbem, but the naf is a boardgaming based society. It wasn't even in existence a year ago, so surely you can live without it's blessing? It's not ideal (for you), but very little in life is.

Apologies for ranting.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri May 30, 2003 11:42 pm

Slinky78 wrote:Would you like someone to round up people in a 50 mile radius of your house at gunpoint and make them play bloodbowl?

52 people, 1372 scarecrows.

Oh man, I'll apologise right now.

tchatter · Post by **tchatter** » Fri May 30, 2003 11:47 pm

Ok... this is digressing

Anyways... its really GW's fault that there isn't a lot of BB over here. I mean in a country where FOOTBALL is one of our primary sports, why wouldn't that take advantage of that?

I go to a GW store, I have 1 an hour West, another an hour and a half East. What do I find? A Handbook, a 2002 Annual, a copy of Mag 3, a few scatter boosters, mostly Goblins, a Rat Ogre, and Prince Moron. And a few teams, typically Norse, Khemri and Dwarf. Thats it. They don't have a league in the store, they don't demo it, nothing. The one West has a painted Skaven team in the case. So I look on GWUSMO, put Mag 5, and 6 in my cart, each one is $3.50 total comes to $22.00 with shipping!!! WTF!!! $11 per mag for something that is $3.50??!!! So I call and ask about a subscription, he has no clue. I call again and get a different troll, they don't offer a subscription in the US. Sigh... so I have come to rely on my local hobby shop that runs one BB League, and has a few more boosters and at least gets the mag 4-6 months after Europe, Annual 2003 whats that? Well, the league is a joke, none of them know how to play right, they interpret the rules totally wrong, none visit these boards and none of them even know what the NAF is.
For me its not so much the cash, its the family as well. But, I would have gone to GenCon if I wasn't going to have a 2 week old at the time. Indiana is only 12 hours away by car. Chicago about 10-11. I would go to Toronto since that is only 2 hours NW of me, but I haven't heard exactly when something is going down there. It would be nice if they would rotate the Chaos cup around, since Baltimore is only 8 hours away for me as well, and I have friends there.
I would gladly run a tournament here in Rochester, NY but I would probably get like 12 people and of those 12 about 6 would be using plastic Orc minis because trying to get a hold of real minis in the US is near IMPOSSIBLE without paying the outrageous shipping that GW charges. It doesn't not cost $15 to send me two magazines from Baltimore to Rochester.
Enough bitching... from me.

DL - If you want to run a PBEM tournament, use a scoring system that mimics NAF and start an Unofficial Underground Whatever, I am with ya. We could charge x amount of money that would be spent entirely on Prizes and shipping of said prizes and post results on the web. You could do four tournaments a year, have each round equal 1 week of playing time so about 2.5 turns per day. We could have a prize for being in the tournament, like dice or a 'coin'

or something else... depending on the amount of entries, could use PayPal or some other way to collect fees that would allow us to later post the accounting of the tournament. To prove that all funds were used to pay for prizes. And it would be an Official Unofficial tournament... Think about it... I know of about 40 coaches that would play...

DW - no offense taken... but I think that there are also distractions for some of us that play PBEM. I mean with an average of 12-24 hours per turn, you quickly lose any sense of strategy. Plus the boss could walk around at any point, the baby cries, the wife is nagging, etc... Needless to say you aren't always focused on the game. At least at a tourny you are focused on one thing and one thing only, Blood Bowl. I don't disagree with anything you have said, I hope that you see my point as well. Maybe in a year or two I can hit some tournaments, but for now PBEM is all I got. Unless GW decides to actually market the US... gee there's a thought.

Wow this is long... sorry...