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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:07 pm 
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In almost every post, the current trend makes the team look more and more like regular humans. While we accept that as balanced, the idea is to have something different.

People keep comparing the princeling to ghoul. One person commented, but there is so much more. Obviously, being on a different team can make the usefulness different. Ghouls are good, so just being worse than a ghoul doesn't equal bad. Ghouls do not have access to apothecary. Stregth access costs.
Rolex wrote:
dode74 wrote:
0-2 Princeling 7337 Catch Dodge GAS 100k That makes them MORE overpriced then before. They are ghouls that pay 30k for catch!

30k for catch, apo access, and strength access is not bad.

I still like the idea of giving the princelings loner. They just don't play well with others, but then you have to make them so awesome that people take them. In the house rules thread I discussed such an idea, but it's a two position team and that just doesn't relate to "fixing" this team.

An idea for fixing, make them 4 AG with loner. An example:
7 3 4 7 Side Step, Dodge, Pro, Loner GA 110k (maybe 100k because of Loner)
Same cost/stats/access as witch elf. Pro & Loner means they almost never use TRR, but are not as reliable as witch elf for any task they haven't skilled in.
I know the costing guide does not allow Loner on anything except Big Guy, but Loner is the concept.

This definitely introduces new skills to the beginners game.

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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:24 pm 
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In general I must say that I'm quite enjoying this feedback, it's all useful.

Conversations like this about something that, as several have rightly pointed out, is a variant list aimed at giving newcomers something different to do with contents of their starter set, have real merit. I don't think I'm exposing any great secrets of the industry to say that most game design, any game, any company, boils down to this sort of conversation mostly, so it's a useful exercise all around.

Having a read of the team creation guidelines linked earlier no doubt is useful, but please if you do have novel ideas, share them. It's all interesting to read.

Good work guys.

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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:53 pm 
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CyberedElf wrote:
I still like the idea of giving the princelings loner. They just don't play well with others

I think in this regard Animosity is more fitting. Presumably starting with Catch is to emphasise their role as being the focus point of every drive as the person you're giving the ball to to claim the glory of the TD. Animosity would make it more unlikely for them to be willing to pass that chance at glory over to another team member, without affecting other parts of their game, such as blocking (no reason for them to struggle at defending themselves because peasants are on the pitch).

Personally I'd think of removing Pro - they're young upstarts buying their own team to play in, not wily veterans like Pro invokes.
Without a good fluff reason for it, I'd happily see Fend come off the Linemen and have them standard 50k humans, perhaps giving Fend to the Princelings - they're well practiced in keeping filthy peasants at arms length where they belong (which would also give them a small boost to their ability as Runners too).

As great as Guard is and obviously a superb starting skill, I'd like to see how they fare having the Guard still but no Block. Obviously they'll have that combination still after 6 SPP, but as an off-the-bat starting team, the Guard will be easier to work around by being more able to knock them down and negating their assists. It's an interesting if not balanced starting skill concept.


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 Post subject: Mystic force
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:22 pm 
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It feels to me that giving Guard was an attempt to give the team the added punch of having S4 without giving them S4.

I am impressed with the variety of suggestions put forth. I am currious how these teams play on the field not just toying with rosters. I would like to give the Savage Orcs a run out to see how it plays.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:11 pm 
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CyberedElf wrote:
In almost every post, the current trend makes the team look more and more like regular humans. While we accept that as balanced, the idea is to have something different.
There's a limited amount of space, though. I think the roster Rolex and I have tweaked the team into has the advantage of being within the bounds of "normal" while being in keeping with the race. For a team that's undergone no playtesting at all I think that normality matters.

I don't like the AG4/loner idea for this team. AG4 on a human is generally considered not good - the 6(7)/3/3/8(7) statline is generic human and I wouldn't want to move too far from that (I dislike the MA8 ST2 catcher tbh). I do get where you're coming from with the concept but I'm not sure this team warrants it.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:38 pm 
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Dode,

The current human catcher stat line is one of the current players that bothers me the most for the reasons you have stated. I just have a hard time with a catch, non stunty skink as a "human".

I really like the concept behind the 4 ag + loner idea but the animosity concept fits the bill better here I think, maybe with some other boost.

TL


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:23 am 
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I agree an animosity style skill would be better, but animosity says "same race." The whole team is human.
Animosity would have to be rewritten or declare the human princeling not human.
That's why I chose Loner instead. Since I don't think rewriting skills is an option.

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Last edited by CyberedElf on Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:45 pm 
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I like Dode/Rolex team but maybe it is too similar to the normal humans. What about

0-16 6337 fend 60k G
0-4 5339 Guard 80k GS (+10k due to guard at the start might be too good)
0-2 6338 pass, NoS 70k GP (just to make a different thrower than the human)
0-2 7337 block, dodge, catch, animosity 110k GAS (-20k due to animosity)
0-1 ogre vanilla

Animosity rewritten as to affect anyone not noble (everyone else). Dont think the pricelings are OP as they have + catch but -MO,-AG,+animosity for 10k compared to wardancers


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:16 pm 
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MacHurto wrote:
I like Dode/Rolex team but maybe it is too similar to the normal humans.
Well, they are humans. I think the flavour is a bit different and a bit bashier/slower. It's a team I wouldn't mind trying out.
Quote:
What about

0-16 6337 fend 60k G
0-4 5339 Guard 80k GS
0-2 6338 pass, NoS 70k GP (just to make a different thrower than the human)
0-2 7337 block, dodge, catch, animosity 110k GAS
0-1 ogre vanilla

Animosity rewritten as to affect anyone not noble (everyone else). Dont think the pricelings are OP as they have + catch but -MO,-AG,+animosity for 10k compared to wardancers

4 starting guard again...
Rewriting skills to fit the team... not ideal imo, but GW have written in new rules to fit models so...


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:19 pm 
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But it is 4 slow guard without block and overpriced. Is 4 guard really much better than 4 block?

Regarding animosity, I agree it is not ideal. It was just I like the idea above of them not wanting to give the ball to other players. In any case I would argue it is not really a rewrite as it is the design idea of the skill. And nobles might very well think peasants *are* another race :-)


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:36 pm 
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MacHurto wrote:
But it is 4 slow guard without block and overpriced. Is 4 guard really much better than 4 block?

1d block with Block fails 1 in 6. Guard provides easy 2d blocks, which fail 1 in 9 without Block and 1 in 36 with. And the Princelings do have Block. So yes, I do think it is too much.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:11 pm 
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You are probably right that they are too powerful. What about:

0-16 6337 fend 50k G (why should they be more expensive than a better norse lineman?
0-4 5339 stand firm 70k GS (also a good skill for a bodyguard)
0-2 6338 pass, NoS
0-2 7337 block, dode, catch, animosity 110k GSA
0-1 ogre

They control positioning and are quite different from vanilla humans. 2 very good players (with a big target in their heads) but I would say they are low-mid tier 1


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:11 pm 
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MacHurto wrote:
0-2 7337 block, dode, catch, animosity 110k GSA

Well that's OP for sure ;)

But yeah, that's an option. 4 SF would be annoying, certainly, despite the ST3.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:46 am 
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For me this is totally over-describing. If you're going to add a starting skill to a player, that hasn't been described on that race before, then it has to be for a stand out reason. Otherwise they should be vanilla. A standard human is vanilla 6338. So if they do not have these stats then why don't they have these stats?

Either they have a specialist position, specialist equipment or a special trait. As these humans come from the centre of the human world that really limits things.

If you give players skills willy nilly to make it a fun team to play, that really muddies the water of the races and positions that are established. This in turn dilutes racial and positional skills and traits.

In short adding too many starting skills/new skills to a team is bad for the game integrity.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Tbh, the linemen with fend are just there to follow the original noble team. They could be vanilla linemen. Same with the throwers.

The 5339 Stand Firm players could perfectly be human blockers, which is a position that existed before, in 2ed. Of course they are not going to be as strong as a BOB, but with AR9 (extra armor/size) and SF, they hold the line.

Princelings with 7337 blodge, catch are players with skills that vanilla humans have. As AR7 seems to be the non armoured human AR (norse, amazons, catchers), it fits. They need to be free of armor to do all the crazy plays.

But at this point the roster becomes totally detached from the original and doesnt really add anything really new, so it is kind of superfluous


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