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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Well, I keep hearing the term "fun leagues", as if they were a special kind of leagues. I have no doubt the new secret weapons for the goblins will be fun in the eyes of someone. Just as much as these teams, Grak, the mixed special cards...

Everything is fun.

And apparently everything is designed without any serious criteria or balance.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:29 pm 
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I don't dislike the idea they make experimental roster or rules available.

But they should brand them clearly as "EXPERIMENTAL" or "UNOFFICIAL".


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:02 pm 
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Rolex wrote:
I don't dislike the idea they make experimental roster or rules available.

But they should brand them clearly as "EXPERIMENTAL" or "UNOFFICIAL".


And not charge for them, because once you ask people to pay for something then they get a sense of entitlement and expect to be able to use said thing.

Milo, I'm curious if you were able to playtest the new Goblin special weapons. I'm guessing you can't answer at this time, but can you tell us what you have playtested after it has been released?

Edit: Mainly, I'm interested in knowing where the line is between the 'old, untested, random stuff', and the 'new, vetted by BB players stuff' is.

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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:16 am 
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Milo wrote:
GalakStarscraper wrote:
So Milo said he had Andy's ear and was looking over new stuff along with another player coach.

So Milo did he let you see this idea at all? Are you allowed to say? Understand if you cannot. But that Nobles team is just bad ... really really really bad ... (did I mention how bad it is).


This was not reviewed by the playtest group. I believe it may have been in the works for a long time.


So if the playtest group didn't review Grak and Crumbleberry or these 2 new teams, what exactly is the playtest group reviewing?

Anything?

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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:33 am 
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faust_33 wrote:

Milo, I'm curious if you were able to playtest the new Goblin special weapons. I'm guessing you can't answer at this time, but can you tell us what you have playtested after it has been released?

Edit: Mainly, I'm interested in knowing where the line is between the 'old, untested, random stuff', and the 'new, vetted by BB players stuff' is.


Yes, the playlist group did review the upcoming Goblin roster changes.

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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:31 am 
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Milo wrote:
Yes, the playlist group did review the upcoming Goblin roster changes.

It is nice to know they were reviewed. I guess we will wait a couple of months and then you can tell us if you like the changes or not! :D


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 Post subject: Mystic force
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:33 pm 
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I remember many years ago buying bloodbowl magazines and compendiums with nothing more than a bunch of experimental rosters and half baked rules. Overtime some of these experimental teams morphed in to the rosters we know and love (?) Today. Now with the internet I think we expect a lot of this to be free. However, if you want me to pay a, to be fair, small sum to gain a different team it is not unreasonable, but it needs to give you a little more than this. Especially as soon as it is released others are going to find out without paying.

For a new team to be warranted it needs to fill a gap or create a niche. We have seen they are willing to make some new skills so this does make this a more viable option. The fluff needs to make sense as well to give it purpose to exist and inspire the choices, not cobbled together as an after thought.

The idea of savage orcs playing bloodbowl makes more sense from a background and niche point of view. Less armoured orcs with frenzy is a very different feel to anything else out, which should be able to be balanced, as frenzy is a blessing and a curse....

The nobles I find a stretch. If its meant to be Bretonians then say it. The skills just seem a bit off to me. Plus I do not see the niche it tries to fill. Is this a running human team with a lot of pass? Humans pretending to be orcs or less skilful elves with muscle?

For Bloodbowl in this latest iteration to reach its potential, there should be new teams to shake up the order and game play, but getting that right can be very difficult. The existing recognized teams have had a long time to get to their current form with numerous adjustments in stats, price, skills, skill access, and base rules. So it will be with any new released team, I think it will take a while for them to reach their final form, if we (and they) let the process work the way it did for other teams. That way the best ideas will survive and the less good ideas will be quietly forgotten about.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:59 pm 
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Is there a discussion of these teams on the Blood Bowl Facebook page?

I dont like the way they did this or the current formats of these teams, but if they are wanting feedback because they are planning to eventually do some official rosters I'd like to express to them what I think about these rosters by whatever channel they are actually going to look at.

TL


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:36 am 
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Post here. It gets seen.

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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:21 pm 
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JT-Y wrote:
Post here. It gets seen.


Ok. About Savage Orcs IMHO:

UPS
-They are a tier 2 team and I think they pose no problem to overall balance.
-According to background it seems very likely Savage Orcs would play blood bowl in their own particular way.
-I like very much the idea of having S access instead of G on lineman and brutes. I works both as a limiting factor and gives the team a particular feeling.
-Even if not very good they can be fun for a coach.

DOWNS
-they are really pricey. Both Brutes and Swamp Troll are overpriced by 10K.
-Swamp troll with that price and no goblin on the roster is pointless. And I see no reason why a Troll living in a swamp should run faster then a regular troll....
-The thower is underwelming. If a naked blitzer is AV 8 a naked thrower should be AV 8.
- It is almost impossible to make a playable roster. It would be better to have more expensive RR and less expensive players. Making super pricey teams is not a good balancing method.
-The tendency will be maxing out non frenzy players (like brutes), ruining the concept of Savage Orcs.

HOW I WOULD CHANGE THEM
Linemen: same
Blitzers: same
Swamp Troll: 120k regular troll with disturbing presence (because of the stench)
Brutes: 0-2 and 70k
Thrower: 5338 frenzy pass 70k
Goblin: 0-2

Human Nobility next.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:32 pm 
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I love Savage Orcs to be honest (granted, I am planning to give my killer Blitzer Frenzy anyways). Great idea, good fluff, nice diversification of nieches. If my league weren't full of pretty good coaches I'd ask my comissioner to allow them for sure so i could play them.

The nobles, from what I gather, are awefull. Its humans, but better! Humans aren't easy, but they sure aren't bad enough that giving them a buff is reasonable! 4 Block/Guard players just sounds dumb.

That being said I think we should apreciate that they intend to develope new teams with the community. If these had been official releases GW needed a smack on the head. Now, they just need a bit feedback like "hey, the nobles are ridiculous, don't give them Guard or give them much less of it" or "Orcs are cool, but maybe don't have the Thrower be that weak".


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:50 pm 
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Location: Chorley, where the police tazer blind people rather than look for the actual sword wielding lunatic
Useful feedback presented well is nice to see. Personally I find stuff like that more useful, when it devolves into arguments I tune out. There is a lot to be said for just being able to read a players thoughts on a subject, it doesn't need the round and round. I'd say if more people can post like that the more use it is.

Honestly I think you both largely echo most people's thoughts on the Savage Orcs, it's not bad, has a clear character, and could be a fun thing in league play for homes and clubs, but needs a bit of refining.
One thing I would say is that Armour Value is an odd stat that has to do work for several things, not just armour but inherent toughness as well. Naked or not it makes sense to me that a Blitzer would be harder than a Thrower.
Just a thought on why I am okay with the armour values differing.

The Princeling roster is a different animal. I know exactly what is wrong with it, as does anyone really, personally I'd be more interested in discussing the theme and better ways to represent that in game.
I perceive it as something of a rich team from Marienburg, the nouveau riche berghers and merchants of the city being the 'stars' of the team and playing at playing the game with a fixed image in mind of flamboyant passes and memorable touchdowns, the rest being hired muscle with wealth bringing some very competent muscle in limited numbers.
I can see that is present, but the execution isn't right yet. There is doubtless a more interesting roster within the theme.

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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Can we just replace the guard with fend and stand firm.

i choose whether i'm pushed, and if you're following :-)

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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Taking your cue JT-Y, I won't pile on with the stats and skills issue with the Nobility roster. For me an even bigger problem is the dull theme. We already have a Human roster with a generic medieval feel to it, it's not really a big difference to make a noble theme (and one with merely reworked thrower/catcher/blitzer positions).

If they want to add another human roster, make the difference shine! Go beyond the traditional borders of the old world and take inspiration from the kingdom of ind, Cathay, Araby, etc. A roster with not just new names and skills, but a new feel to it (aesthetically and in game play).


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:48 pm 
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Location: Chorley, where the police tazer blind people rather than look for the actual sword wielding lunatic
I don't disagree. This is perhaps what we already have in the shape of Amazon, Norse, and even Pact/Renegades, all of which I consider human rosters, so I think of the "Human" roster as Central Empire.
I do think there's a lot of scope for other haman cultures in the Old World proper, such as Brettonian and Kislev.
It's a big challenge though. Do you go for tiny tweaks to the starting Empire roster, or something very different?

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