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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:17 am 
Super Star
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That's not what Tim's saying. He'll only you discount you after he's seen you win a couple of prizes. I don't vote for a team that I have seen win a price before as quickly as for one that didn't, too


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:04 am 
Legend
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The problem as I see it, is that some people think the best painted prize should go to the technicaly best painted team, while others let their vote be influenced by other factors, like overall look, conversions and having seen that team (win) a bunch of times before.

To get around this problem, I think it would be necessary to hand out several prizes. For example: Pre-select a number of teams which will be put on display as contenders and have the coaches/jury judge the contenders on several issues (Paintwork, Overall Team look, Conversions). From this scoring you can then calculate best painted and best looking overall.


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:11 pm 
Da Organiza
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are "overall look" and"convertions" considered to be "other factors?" in a painting contest :roll:

while I understand the point of this thread, I'm not sure it is possible to bring objectivity into something as subjective as painting.. the same reason people have argued for years that diving, ice skating, syncronised swimming, gymnastics etc should not really be considered sports because they are not as measurable as how far someone jumps or throws something..

I would happily judge any painting competition, but would everyone agree with my choice, or think it unbiased? No...

so, keep it as it is and understand that some people will be surprised the results sometimes... while I have often been suprised and even disappointed by the results of painting competitions, I have never seen a total miscarriage of justice...

and it is only a painting prize by the way, not a presidential election.. :wink:

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:59 pm 
Rookie
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Exactly!

I wouldn't go as far as to invent several prizes - best conversions, best team unity, best humour, best drybrushing, best whatever. That would be putting too much emphasis on the painting prize and would not resolve the actual issue: judging the appearance of a team, no matter which criteria you apply, remains a personal and subjective decision.

The only exception to this might be that a tournament is rather "rich" and able to hand out lots of prizes - then they could go for 1st, 2nd and 3rd best painted (as happens in some tournaments). But that should not be a general rule.

The point here is, imho, more one of organizing / facilitating the voting process during large tournaments, as we have seen that expecting 90 people to go around between matches and judge 90 teams doesn't really work. If they have a selection of 5 to 10 nicely displayed teams to choose from, the voting will be made easier, but individuals will still choose the team that appeals to them personally due to very personal reasons. And again that choice might not be the technically best painted. There is just no way around this - and it doesn't really matter, either.

The tricky point here is HOW to get to the preselection in the first place. Personally I think the best way would be to form a jury consisting of organizers and referees (as they don't vote), accomplished painters and maybe innocent players. They each make a shortlist of their favourites, then decide together which of those actually go into the selection, which then should be displayed for everyone. Discussion should be about
- who will be the jury (should last year's winner be included or not, how big should the jury be, etc.)
- how many teams are selected
- should players be able to enter their teams in addition to or instead of a jury selection
- the voting system itself, like should there be just one vote pp, or should a point system be applied
etc. etc.

But, above all, let's not forget one thing: a bloodbowl tournament is about playing the game (and some say about winning the game :wink: ).
The painting prize is only an additional BONUS that adds some extra character to a tournament. If it is causing bad blood, we might as well do without it....

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:55 pm 
Veteran
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who will be the jury : the best local painters you know 2-4 people and of
course the last year´s winner!! he deserves it!!
how many teams : 5 - 8 maybe 10 on a big tournament
should player enter teams : no!! only jury can
voting system: one vote per player - plan enough time for the voting!

a painting contest is more than just a bonus. after playing bb and maybe
try to win, the painting is the biggest aspect.
for me, winning a painting contest is more beautiful than winning
a tournament, and i think some people agree!

there will always be diffrent opinions about who should win the contest.
and thats new stuff people can discuss.. not alway skill combos
and most power team set up or wich race is best.


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:16 pm 
Da Admin
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Another way, more suitable for smaller tournaments, is for those who think they are in with a chance of winning the painting prize to put themselves forward so that you get a self-selecting shortlist.

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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:58 am 
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Right or wrong, when I'm called on to vote for "best painted" (ie BB, Spiky) I vote for the team that I'd most like to own. Sometimes that will be the best painted classically (ie the Hashrats), sometimes it will be one that might not be painted as well, but has (imo) more "character".

Hell, as a non-painter, any team with more than 3 colours on it looks good to me (within reason obviously), so it has to be something that stands out.

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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:48 am 
Da Organiza
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maybe we should stop Darkson from voting at future events.. :P

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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:34 pm 
The Voice of Reason
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Maybe only people who have won Best Paint awards elsewhere should be allowed to vote..... :D

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:49 pm 
Da Spammer
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That's two on my "don't vote for them" list. ;)

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:34 am 
Da Organiza
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Deathwing wrote:
Maybe only people who have won Best Paint awards elsewhere should be allowed to vote..... :D


fine with me dude.. :P 8)









thanks Brass Sam! :D

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:14 pm 
Legend
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Picking a few teams, putting them on display, and letting the masses vote then is the best option I think. And indeed, a "coaches" and "judges" (popular and referee ??) "prize" is also a good option.
I happily judge any painting contest though, maybe Im not the best of painters but I do know where to look !!

Btw, why is it that some coaches dont want to vote on a team with square bases ? :o Never heard that before... I dont see the problem ?!

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:12 pm 
Star Player
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I really liked the judging system introduced by Frank at the B7 last year... since therewere few contenders, he could easily appoint a panel of judges to preselect 5% of the competitors; the actual painting vote consisted of players having to distribute three amounts of points (I guess it was 5 / 3 / 1 ) amongst three of the selected teams, with the team with most points overall being declared the winner (with trophy) while runner-up and 3rd place got a honorable mention and a rousing round of applause (felt good enough not to miss a trophy).
This three-stage system would prevent the problem of "mates' voting" if only those ballots having applied all points to three different teams are counted as valid.

I also liked the fact that there was no preselection at the DO. Perhaps it would be enough if everybody who feels he has a chance - or is invited by an "official" to do so - puts their team on display in a prominent room, without eliminating all the others from the competition entirely. And simply announcing the names of runner-up and 3rd place is enough really - no need for expensive prices; acclaim cannot be bought anyway.


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