Eurobowl. Selection criteria for the teams

[Yavatol]

Oh and just for the record. I don't know where the idea of using NAF *rankings* comes from (not from me in any case), but I agree that it is only a poor indicator of player ability and should not be used as a criteria for selection. I don't even think player ability is a necessary criteria for selection. What I said was that the NAF could put down some rules for selection based on the authority invested in it by its members, and if a majority does not agree any more with it people can elect new officials with different views to the crucial positions.

[Tojurub]

I don't know where the idea of using NAF *rankings* comes from (not from me in any case)......

I think it originated somewhere in that infamous German discussion last year.

I think many Germans (not all, though) learned somehting from last years discussion. At least the discussion this year seems to be toned down a little bit and many people voiced their opinion to have one team captain who decides who's going to play.....many ervery country has to go through that pain somehow when it hosts the EuroBowl, just because it's in the country and more people can afford to go there....I see that as a "normal effect"

I just find it somehow funny (and at the same time I'm very impressed) that Italy has the FIBB....you'd expect something like that from the Germans. But I also think any type of ranking has flaws in it and for the EuroBowl the cameradery and social aspect has an even bigger impact than to show who has the best player in the country....that is (in my opinion) a nice side effect....in order to win a tournament you need to play well, but you also need good luck in order to get there.

I think this post was intended to get more ideas for the Italian to solve their "problem" ....and NOT to discuss the intention of the EuroBowl and who should play and how IT HAS TO BE DONE.....let the Italians find their own way and don't let this topic turn into another stupid discussion liek we had last year with the German team....PLEASE: NO!!!!

[Beppe#2]

you're absolutely right tojurub!!! we'll solve (i hope...) ourselves the problems we have.
The fibb was born to create an organization among italian players and tournaments and it worked well!!!
The problem was born since the fibb decided the criteria to select players for the national team: camarederie is not considered and neither having played at least a foreign tournament...
Anyway we'll try to solve this problem soon

[dwarfcoach]

Oh and just for the record. I don't know where the idea of using NAF *rankings* comes from (not from me in any case)...

To be honest, I think that NAF ranking is the only reason so many people have shown consternation about being left out. If it was an invite only tourney (called Old Farts/Eurobowl/Laisse-fair/whatever) I don't think it would've attracted nearly as much attention.

Most BB'ers know of Tulips, an invite only tourney that most of the 'old guard' from the community attend. Most BB'ers may one day aspire to an invite, but that's about as much concern / controvesy it causes.

The Eurobowl has the questionable honour of being NAF ranked but not strictly 'open to all' in the true meaning of the phrase. I'm not sure if I really agree with this, but that seems to be the way it is and appears will stay.

This doesn't bother me. It did, then I had a bit of a think about it and decided that any BB tourney is good for the community as a whole and therefore I shouldn't really fuss about any one event.

I 'hope' to be included in the England team this year, but if someone else is chosen instead then I really don't think I will cry about it. I am in the looking into the chances of booking the time off work anyway and going if I am part of the team or not as it will surely be a great event, and I'm sure to get some quality games of BB in against some cool BB players.

Which is what it should all be about, no?

[Teg]

...The fibb was born to create an organization among italian players and tournaments and it worked well!!!
The problem was born since the fibb decided the criteria to select players for the national team: camarederie is not considered and neither having played at least a foreign tournament...

You're right Beppe, last year selection came from FIBB's ranking and our team won the Eurobowl, this system is not perfect and can be improved also thanks to the suggestions in this topic

I prefer if the FIBB will concentrates his efforts on the diffusion of the Blood Bowl in Italy and our Captain (the great old Farina ) will choose the Team Italia also using the english criteria (I like it!! ) and, why not, also using the FIBB's standings.

However I prefer to not change the selection criteria only few months before the tournament, but I'm sure we will find a good solution for next year! (And maybe find a criteria that allows me to play for Team Italia mmmhh... nah! its impossible!! )

[Indigo]

dwarfcoach - tulips IS NAF ranked.

And eurobowls have side tourneys that if people were wanting to play in would be an ideal chance to get extra NAF points. I reckon it's more national pride that means people want to play, which is no bad thing.

I just wish more emphasis was placed on the side tourney - otherwise people won't even turn up and the tourney suffers.

[grotuk]

Which is what it should all be about, no?

You are totally wrong. This is all about the Beer!!

BTW, i think all the national rankings and stuff make a lot of pain to each national scene. Unless in spain, when a debate like it appears...i hold my pants cause always a tsunami arrives...people throwing shit to other people cause in this "national rankings" or "national federation" thingy each one has their point of view...and as with the ass...no one likes others ass

So, keep creating the Teams in a friendly enviroment, keeping things like most travelers and stuff, before the best player factor. I.e. in the spanish teams they are a couple of players that are far from be the best spanish coaches...but i, as a personal opinion, think that they deserve their place much more than other better players. If everybody has this thing clear and not believe that the best ones deserve to go everything will be smoother. Cause...in the end...who are the better players? Maybe you can choose 3 or 4 with this critería for each country...but the rest of the ranking is fuzzy.

Grotuk.

[Panico]

Torsten, is funny and impressive for me as well that we have a the fibb... I always thought that nobody needs a federation with a constitution for playing bloodbowl... it only needs dices, beers and friends!!!
That leaded to my decision.
But please note is only my opinion. Fibb had a good base start, but gone in some direction too far from mine... but since it helps to let community grow, that's ok for me.
Please also note that all discussion here are made in constructive and friendly mode (well, almost all of them) so there will be no problem. Yashin has the good idea to ask here where a lot of the international bb community meets
As Aramil did last year, I'll be at this EB as well as the next, playing it or not, just for the chance of seeing old friends and share a beer... (isn't that camarederie)

Dwarfcoach, I hope you'll take a place in your team, otherwise you have one game already booked!

[Yavatol]

dwarfcoach - tulips IS NAF ranked.

And eurobowls have side tourneys that if people were wanting to play in would be an ideal chance to get extra NAF points. I reckon it's more national pride that means people want to play, which is no bad thing.

I just wish more emphasis was placed on the side tourney - otherwise people won't even turn up and the tourney suffers.

Tulips is not NAF ranked and the Eurobowl never had a real side tourney (only the intention of having one). There is a reason why these never took off.

[Yavatol]

I always thought that nobody needs a federation with a constitution for playing bloodbowl... it only needs dices, beers and friends!!!

That's where I disagree. Dice, beers and friends are sufficient in a small size community. But if you want to grow beyond that you need more structure or else your community closes ranks and dies off because of lack of new input rather quickly. More structure does not necessarily kill all the fun, and dice, beers and friends. Especially if you design a structure in such way that invites new friends to really take part. (And I mean a more satisfactionary part than only be allowed to aspire to become part of the real elite once, while adding substance too their fun by playing in subordinate side-events).

[Panico]

I always thought that nobody needs a federation with a constitution for playing bloodbowl... it only needs dices, beers and friends!!!

That's where I disagree. Dice, beers and friends are sufficient in a small size community. But if you want to grow beyond that you need more structure or else your community closes ranks and dies off because of lack of new input rather quickly. More structure does not necessarily kill all the fun, and dice, beers and friends. Especially if you design a structure in such way that invites new friends to really take part. (And I mean a more satisfactionary part than only be allowed to aspire to become part of the real elite once, while adding substance too their fun by playing in subordinate side-events).

I don't think the two things is different. I'm mean, friend and beer and community. And I'm not for a small size community. There should be a reason why the most populars tourneys in Europe almost reache 100 people.
I'm in as well for let the community growing, trying to spread the passion to my friends, and only in the first 6 month on 2006 I convinced some friends to come with me in 3 abroad tournament, and to know a lot of people from the interantional scene. So I'm really not for "close community".
But EB, whatever is the story or the reasons why people or nation attending for, only allow 8 coaches to play. That's it...

[dwarfcoach]

(And I mean a more satisfactionary part than only be allowed to aspire to become part of the real elite once, while adding substance too their fun by playing in subordinate side-events).

Yavatol my friend, I agree with the sentiment, if not the possible angry-sounding tone of your statement (hard to tell just reading what you type, I may have misunderstood).

It is one tourney. Maybe it should not have gained NAF ranking, but it does have at the moment.

I agree that the situation regarding the side-tourney needs attention but I am happy to try to help with the event, to try to make it a good thing. At the end of the day, as long as each team signs up at least 2 players as back-up team members then this will create a situation of having a small 'B-Team' group at the event that can go ahead and play each other.

Sure the thing may not be perfect, but I'd rather that it was there then not exist...

[Longshot]

Here what i think today.
After 3 years as the French Captain, i am still ready for the next challenge to Bologne.

What do i think about EB compared to Old Fart tourny...

EB is nation pride Old Fart could be an invitationnal, so this is more suited to T5.

Eb is a good idea and i really enjoyed the team we had last year. I really enjoyed this crew spirit that was in our team compared may be to some others.

so here is how i deal with the selection. I want good spirit guys, people involved in the french community. and if they can be good that's a plus. But some weren't and that wasnt a problem for me.

This year, my trouble is that they are some good players that are also good spirit... they didnt ask for the selection, but i think they deserves it also...

Have to maybe change some places into the team to be more competitive but still good spirit! I will try to never loose that good spirit even if it is to win.

Gonna work on the selection very soon now...

[Yavatol]

(And I mean a more satisfactionary part than only be allowed to aspire to become part of the real elite once, while adding substance too their fun by playing in subordinate side-events).

Yavatol my friend, I agree with the sentiment, if not the possible angry-sounding tone of your statement (hard to tell just reading what you type, I may have misunderstood).

I am not angry; the intended tone was satirical. (And I do not think smileys are always a good solution to make up for my lack as a writer )

I am a little bit worried that's all. I fear the general sentiment towards the Eurobowl may actually be damaging the tournament scene. So I think it is important to have this discussion. In that respect I am glad that Yohann is trying to be a captain that is acting in support of the interests of the French BB community as a whole. Same goes for the way Draco and Dave are now running the Dutch selection for the upcoming BorderBrawl. I cannot speak for the French, but the Dutch scene is still small enough to organise itself in this way without the need of a more formal structure. As long as there is some sort of transparency and consensus among the whole group and nobody feels excluded it is fine. (In the case of the Italians, there clearly is no concensus, they are having an argument, or rather are discussing this, to which I added my two cents). But for now I too often see a small group of people having reached a consensus among themselves which mostly serves their self interest, and they expect the rest to form a willing audience and entourage to their own private show. That doesn't work for me, so I am not having any part in it, that should be the end of the story. However, it troubles me that it seems perfectly acceptable to mock or ignore people that do not want to confirm.

[Longshot]

France is a huge scene... if you only look at Francebloodbowl for example.
Hopefully, i think, most of the guys coming to tourny are respectfull and see what the old timers have done for the tourny scene.
People know each others quite well now in France and no one is too much in a 'win at any price' spirit. So i never had too much complications for the moment.

/me cross his fingers